I so appreciate this conversation with Saundra Gilliard and the powerful women who participated in my interview with her. We discussed the complexities of setting up true and impactful alliances across racial lines between women. It turns out that the answer to the question, “How can I be a good ally to women of color” is more complicated than it looks on the surface. Several of the women on the call suggested that we hold more of these conversations and I agree!
See below for audio file and full transcript.
Listen to Audio File:
Here is the diagnostic tool, STOP, that Saundra shared with us to help us be good allies to others:
S: Safe (understand your own stories about allyship and safety parameters)
T: Trust (establish trust with your allies)
O: Objective (know what you want to achieve through alliance)
P: Prevention (take on personal and systemic challenges for long term impact)
FULL TRANSCRIPT OF “HOW TO BE AN ALLY TO WOMEN OF COLOR (AND ALL WOMEN)“
(please pardon automation-inspired typos)
Dana Theus: Hi, everybody.
Welcome to this wonderful conversation on women allying with other women across racial and other boundaries. I’m Dana Theus InPower Coaching, and I’m here with my good friend and colleague Saundra Gilliard, and the more we talk, the more we find we have in common. And this may not be the last time you hear from us.
Saundra is a wonderful thought leader on allyship and so many other things, because she’s a coach and a performer and a creative soul, but she comes from a background in like fortune 500 corporate America. And as, as kind of, as I do too, although I’m not nearly as creative as she is. And it’s really interesting when you have this sort of corporate background and you think about what it means to be an ally in the workplace in particular, but in any setting, things get complicated.
And Saundra has really been instrumental for me and helping me understand what it means to be an ally, at a deeper and much more important level. So, I’m going to open with a story in a minute, but, first I want to just say administratively, what we’re going to do is Saundra and I are going to kick off
[00:01:43] Saundra Gilliard: because I’ve taken all of my 25 years of working in corporate and, doing, as you say, storytelling and finding creative ways to get women’s voices, heard. And, it kind of evolved into me having this business for nearly free, which is an advocacy service for women. And, when I started to delve into that, I realized that there were some behaviors that women, you know, we all have you and I both adapted because he was successful women.
And you did what made you successful in an organization? not knowing that we were actually becoming men in high heels and we were actually, we were actually mimicking the behaviors of men, which wasn’t that advantageous to women, you know, behind us. So I began to focus on how can women help women achieve.
[00:02:30] Dana Theus: Interesting vision they’re taking, taking on the leadership traits of a man, because that’s what leadership meant right. Back when, when we started in particular in corporate America, that really, that really was it. well, I want to applaud you for that. And I w I want to, I want to share the story and get your reaction to, which kind of where you and I took off on this whole concept of allyship and why it’s much more complicated than that.
I thought it was, there was the time a few years ago where, this was before George Floyd, and there was an election. Let me just put it that way. There was an election. And after the election, a lot of people woke up feeling not very safe. And it’s probably fair to say there were a lot of people who woke up and did feel safe, but not on my feed, not in my community, not with my friends.
And a lot of us were really like, what do we do? What do we do to help ourselves and each other? And on my Facebook feed, there was this someone posted like, oh, wear a safety pin. Put a little safety pin on your collar. And that will tell people who feel like they need a safe space, that you’re an ally.
And that they can go sit next to you or they could talk to you and you can be an ally. And this appealed to me because I was feeling very helpless. You know, I was probably, suffering from, was it called slack division? I just, you hit like a lot and you think you’re making a difference, right? But it was better than doing nothing.
And I was feeling really helpless. I thought this is great. I want to wear a safety pin. I want to [00:04:00] tell everybody that I want to help them. I want to create safe space for them. And I said something to that effect on my Facebook feed. And one of my friends who’s a woman of color really came on and got very angry with me on Facebook and was like, this is not the kind of help we need.
We don’t need your help. You know, she’s like, we don’t, you’re not my savior, you know? And she got very angry and I was feeling a little vulnerable to begin with. And I really, I took that very personally. I, I reacted very emotionally in a negative way and I struggled to understand where her. where her anger was coming from, that was being expressed as me.
As someone who wanted to be her friend, I am her friend, but you know, someone who wanted to be her ally in this environment where, where people weren’t feeling safe. And what that did for me was begin to open a door in my mind that I have come to understand something you’ve taught me is being an ally is not a one-way street.
You can’t just wake up and decide to be an ally and not have anyone not have alliances. But I’m curious for, when you hear that story, what does that make you think of? What, what, what do you think was really going on in my Facebook feed there?
[00:05:11] Saundra Gilliard: So two perspective, one is the, perspective of being an emotional reaction.
And, you know, when we hear about the horrible things that happened to, African-Americans and because that’s a perspective that I can speak from, although I think it can go across all, you know, people of color when we have, you know, white women or white people in general, all of a sudden get emotionally evolved, you know, and wearing a pin, putting black tape over their mouth that usually happens for a segment of time.
As long as that emotion is rising high, and then it dies out. And what it doesn’t do is leave us any better than we were before that emotional reaction. So I’m, I can almost feel that the person that responded to you was probably thinking, okay, so what’s going to happen after you take that pin off. I am still going to be the same place and better yet.
What did you do for me before you wore that? You know how much top of mind was my cause or my position before you selected to show how emotionally you’re involved, having your emotions about me doesn’t necessarily help me get the things that I’m looking for. And so when we’re talking about allyship, I think that right now there’s a buzzword.
It was a buzzword. And, in the 1970s, when we had affirmative action. So you have people jumping on a bandwagon with affirmative action, but there are so many other ways that, I think as women, we could take the steps to come to that ally ship. And first of all, it would be how many black women do you really network with?
I mean, in your network. So you jump from not having a network to an ally, how many black women or women of color have you mentored? How many of them have you sponsored. And then to go to the allyship, which to me, you and I discussed it. That means that you have created a common ground, a commonality that you not only want to help me help me individually, but you also want to help remove some of those barriers, barriers that are getting in my way.
Like, you know, what are the practices? What are the procedures? What are the policies that you’re going to connect with me to help remove those, you know, out of the way. So it’s a whole line of, steps that we take before we jump into the, our ship. And that’s what I’m assuming that she was feeling out of nowhere.
Superwoman comes to save the day we’re in a pin. Yeah. so I hear that. And I think you’re probably right on a lot of those things that, you know, in retrospect, this was years ago and the conversations that I’ve had with her and other sense, but, you know, unpacking some, a couple of things you’re saying, I think are really important and are meaningful to me.
[00:07:52] Dana Theus: And in helping me try to understand, like what this really means. One is this distinction between the emotional reaction and the emotional commitment to, to do, to take sustained action, you know, and, and, absolutely that was a factor. You know, I, I w I was in a place where I wanted, I very much emotionally wanted to be helpful and I didn’t know how to do it.
So I was like, here, I’m going to put a symbol up. And now I’m fulfilled because I’ve satisfied my emotional problem. And I really haven’t done anything for anybody else. and, and so that makes a lot of sense. and the other piece of it, though, that I think is important is, that issue about, you know, you’re going to come to save the day.
Like I could save the day, like, like that’s even a possibility, right? Because it’s not like that was the first day of my life. I said anything positive about racial justice. And I think sometimes when we hear that, we think, you know, there’s a, there’s a whole trust issue that happens between, women of color and I’ll speak specifically, you know, because I am an African-American women woman.
[00:08:55] Saundra Gilliard: I have been in the corporate environment. I have been in the educational environment. I have been in a lot of places where I have had to compete with white women. And, so there has historically been a trust factor, between, at least myself and, and many of other people that aren’t. talk to and deal with, and that trust factor, you know, stands in the way.
Number one, and then number two, this whole notion of entitlement and privilege so that when you have a person struggling, you know, there’s food scarcity, but you have the white savior, who’s gone to treat you to lunch. You know, that doesn’t, that ha that allows you to eat that meal, but it doesn’t allow you to address the problem that that may cause that food scarcity to be in place.
And so when I’m thinking about white women who want to put on a cake to save me, or to show me that from an emotional standpoint, that we’re sisters. It does. It still leaves me after your emotions have healed and you’ve forgotten about it and he’d gone on, he’s got other things. I am still dealing with the issue of being a black woman in this [00:10:00] society, doubling any of the, the burdens that you, that you as a woman feel.
So those are the issues that you really have to look at when you’re trying to say that you want to be an hour, you know, to I’m a woman of color, understanding that it’s not just your emotions that, you know, she’s looking to get it. I mean, we have our own emotions because they had to for awhile, what else can you bring to the table?
As my daughter would say, what else you got and that you bring it to the table.
[00:10:29] Dana Theus: And I think too, I’ll tell you another thing that, that helped my knee with my perspective. And it builds on that point. You were just talking about, which is. When I put a pin on my profile, I make it about me and it’s not about me.
And one of the ways I came to appreciate that point is roughly the same timeframe, but for different reasons, I began to realize, well, wait a minute, minute. Yes. I have privilege as a white woman. And that, that gives me a special need to participate, but it [00:11:00] also makes it challenging for me to participate in a way that centers me.
Like that’s not what it’s about, which by the way is how I feel when men say they want to help me. Right. So when we look at. We look at it through the lens of how do we use privilege correctly and well, wherever we are on the privilege ladder, you know, we can see the limitations of what we want.
People who have a higher privilege than we do to, to do, to help us and, and centering themselves is not the answer clearly, you know, give up what a good point up with privilege. So my answer to individuals who come to me and say, that, you know, they want to evaluate their privilege. I asked them what pain point are you willing to accept?
[00:11:49] Saundra Gilliard: You know, to show me that you are an ally with me, what was your pain point? You know, your preference is going to be there, you know, by the, by nature of where we live and the nature of the color of his skin and a whole lot of things. So I’m not as concerned about your privilege. I want to know what pain are you with?
To endure to show me that there was a commitment. and I’m always thinking about, when we talk about allyship and we look at privilege, I think about, I do a lot of history, you know, because I tell stories. So I do a lot of history and I always try to get into the minds of, I think about those three students, Chaney Schwerner.
And I forget the last person, but two of them had privilege, you know, but, and they, and they were not tied to any one particular in that movement. So they were the epitome of showing me that they were in fact allies. They had nothing to gain everything to lose. There was no notoriety. Some of them, one of them have even lost the connection with their family, but they had a common ground.
A common denominator was to eradicate racism. And they were willing to do, they were willing to take the pain of [00:13:00] doing that. And when we look at what an ally is, even a turn of the war, it’s like, where are we going to find common ground to protect one another? And so returning this ally with what I call the George Floyd syndrome is that now it’s this catch phrase that I want to be your friend today because the world is so bad.
And I feel like I’m carrying this heavy load. And so I want to find a way that I can feel like I’m, I feel you, but what is the outcome of your feelings in terms of me in this place that we call, you know, Sharon is America together? Like, what is the outcome of that? And you know, that I’d love that analogy of like, are you ready to get on a bus and risk your life?
Right? Like, like what are, what are you willing to do? And I know. I’ll give you a, I’ll give you a, a mental track that I’ve experienced and I’ve talked to other people white and not white, you know, but all with privilege, you know, and, and, you do, when you have privilege of any [00:14:00] kind, you have to stop and say, am I reeling to risk that privilege a for myself or my family for anybody else that would be affected by that.
[00:14:08] Dana Theus: But also does that diminish my ability to be helpful, right? So it’s like, cause that privilege is leverage, right? So if you, if you, how you use it is important. So there’s that all those ways of thinking about it. And then there’s also like, well, maybe I am, but what can I do? That’s really meaningful. What can I do?
That’s really helpful. And the thing I found, so mindblowing, when I kind of got to that at one point is your analogy of the war in a true Alliance. You sit down and talk together about, well, what, how can you use your resources and your privilege? It’s like, what is useful know. If I don’t talk to you, I don’t know if making a donation to this organization or standing up for you in this meeting, or I don’t know what’s most useful, but if we’re in conversation and we say we have a joint purpose, our joint purpose is to help the people in, in our team
you know, see their bias that they’re not seeing and learn to respect you or me or anyone else. We’re going to have a conversation about that. We’re going to agree. Yeah. It’s meaningful. When we speak up and say, wait a minute, you’re talking over her. So let’s do that. Right. So in conversation with common purpose, Then it’s easy to me for me or you or anybody else to make this decision.
[00:15:24] Dana Theus: Yes. I’m willing to take that risk because I understand that it’s important and that it will have an impact. So yes, I am willing to take that. You, then you bring up a good point and I hope the listeners really caught this it’s that, you’ve mentioned sitting down at commonality that I talk about when we want to come up with solutions.
[00:15:41] Saundra Gilliard: Like they don’t come from the community or the people that you’re serving, someone sits up high and decide that here are some of us here’s, what’s going to solve that problem. And, Renee brown, I’m also a sociologist. Renee brown gives us a wonderful way of, Of looking at that it’s grounded theory.
It’s there, you know, so what happens is that instead of using your, your old methodology of trying to solve the problems for people in society, you go talk to those people, you find out what they want and all the data that you collect comes from them. So it’s not that you have a, you have a, a way of you thinking that a social system should work because you know, you have all the studies in the empirical data, you get them, you get rid of all of that.
You come there with an empty mind, a pen and a piece of paper, and you listen to their stories and what you get out of their stories is. Common codes that you would understand what their real problems are and inheriting that together. You find a solution, which I think is just so beautiful about what Renee brown writes about because she uses grounded theory.
You know, she’s a storyteller. Also, she understands the power and letting people explain what their problems are and help and be helpful in that solution. So when we go back to this whole thing of allyship, you know, my position is, is that the buzzword or is it a real word? Because there are so many different ways that you can help women without Wheeldon this term, I’m an ally, you know, I just, and I, and this is what I want our listeners to walk away with.
When we get a little later, we’re talking about how do you do that self-assessment to determine, at what point are you from a personal perspective? Because it might be, you might start out with just networking. There are some women who believe it or not. They want to be allies. They have never been around more than two black women or two women of color and their entire lives, you know?
So it’s like, how do you, how do you assess where you could really be the most effective? And that’s what we’re talking about. How can women be effective for other women?
[00:17:51] Dana Theus: if you want to come in with a question, like raise your hand and I can make you a panelist or you can type it into chat. And, and you know, one of the things I like [00:18:00] to do in this conversation is get into some specifics, like, like for example, you know, women get talked over in meetings.
Well, black women get talked over even more and sometimes by white women. And so I don’t know if that’s the best example that people want to talk about, but, but examples where we could say, well, what would it look like to be an ally in that situation? You know? Like, like what does it look like? Cause this, cause all this stuff.
Really important, but it is abstract until we’re put in.
[00:18:30] Saundra Gilliard: Yeah, I have a story. cause I grew up, I told you before that I grew up in a beehive, you know, what would I call it? Because she was, she would be what one would consider, you know, queen bee, a white woman who actually took my hand from the day I walked into my first corporate job and she, fought for me.
She prepared me. So she was, she was probably a mentor and a sponsor. And an ally volt up into one, and we’re talking about an 85. She took me straight out of $3 grad school. And I, and I sat almost at her feet. She made sure that there was room for me at the table. She made sure that there were a corporate corner office it’s opened up for me.
She prepared me. She paid for any education that I were company. She made sure the company financed any additional education I needed in terms of learning how to do a particular role in the organization. She went to bat for me. She also pulled me aside when she thought that I didn’t handle something correctly and.
Always willing to give me advice on how so she became a mentor, a coach, an and an ally because she fought for, she fought for against discrimination that I was going through, you know, in the organization. And I always had her, she was the one who put me on the ground in terms of, of being a, a corporate woman.
And she said to me that, watch out for women at corporations. And this is the white woman. This is the white woman. And, she went, she was just so, so it’s not that there are not women who can do that. It’s just that you have to take the barometer of where do you stand personally in terms of. So, Saundra, we have a question from Donita but Saundra I’m encouraging you to come on either video or audio, or I see you on video.
[00:20:32] Caller: Well, good afternoon ladies.
How are you? Both doing wonderful.
Saundra Gilliard: Wonderful. Thank you for joining us.
Caller: Oh, absolutely. Yeah. So I just wanted to, comment, but at the same time, you had mentioned Saundra, Dana. about what it looked like, in a situation where, you’re in a meeting and you’re it actually, let me, let me back up a little bit.
So let me introduce myself. I’m in the Philadelphia area and I’ve been in corporate America for wow. Like 25 plus years, in the it space, have been here. I’ve been in that area, you know, for quite awhile. And, and so I’ve. I think I’ve seen it all. I think I have an experienced it as well.
So one thing that I have experienced, is, say like if you’re in a meeting, and you actually somewhat, you put out your idea, about, whatever’s happening or whatever’s going on, or whatever’s being presented and you put on the table, something that can contribute to the conversation and, or, an idea, and no one gets it.
But then when, either a white man or a white woman, will repeat basically what you just said. And it’s like, wow, that’s a great idea. So how would an ally handle that situation?
[00:21:53] Saundra Gilliard: What, and I’m going to do this because I had a wonderful one. the person who, mentored coach and weather ally for me, stopped the meeting and said, isn’t that the same question or the same response that Saundra just gave? What are you adding new to that? Wow, that’s good. That, and as she said, that’s why I knew she was in my corner.
And I can tell you this Saundra after about two times of doing that, when I sat in ball board meetings and made a comment, there was no repetition because she had already set the stage. Is that if she says something, if you’re going to repeat it, forget it. Unless you’re going to add something more profound to it, but how many women.
Have the ovaries to do that in a meeting, right? Yeah. Because they’re back there. They’re vying for position themselves. Exactly. Yeah. So, you know, you have to what they have to walk that fine walk. I mean, I think today, at least in the company that I work with, I actually now feel, comfortable. I mean, it’s very sad that it’s taken so long.
But I do now feel comfortable to say. You know, my position on things. and then every once in a while, I will hear, a white man or a white woman, kind of speak up and, provide the feedback that you had just mentioned. But it’s very far and few is very far and few. and as I listened to, the both of you, it does help me to realize that I may have had mentors in my career.
But I don’t really feel like I’ve had an ally, whether it’s, you know, a, a woman or a man, who outwardly, as you had provided the example outwardly, would, you know, state to others that, you know, Hey look, almost like, listen to this person. don’t put whatever this person said aside. And give credit to someone else.
I now recognize that I have not kind of listening to your explanation. So one of the questions and I’ll let someone else answer. So how do you, do you have to proactively seek that ally or will that ally recognize you and want to pour into, or provide that, that net safety net or that growth or the opportunity to help you grow in whatever area that you’re in?
[00:24:19] Saundra Gilliard: That’s a great question. And I’m going to fold that in before Dana speaks, I’m going to fold that in into a comment I see by Dr. Powell and that about personal power and being able to hold on to personal power while you’re helping someone else along the way. And so to answer your question is that two things have to happen if you are not being mentored or coached or allied.
You should step into that power. And if you see someone that you think is in the position to do that, ask them, but you mindful of the fact that they have to within themselves feel comfortable. That that is something that they can do. And we’ll talk about the stop framework that I have for a person to do that because the person is in a BPC seat or above doesn’t mean that they have the internal capacity to be an ally, or even to be a sponsor for that matter.
So there is something that has to happen. If something happened happen has to happen within them. And even though you ask them, they may not be, but here is a pro tip for everyone step into your own personal power. So if you’re at a meeting and if someone would be peace yourself, what is wrong with you saying John?
You know what? I’m glad you agreed with what I just said. You know, you know, it did you have, we have to find way to claim our own power and particularly black women. I, you know, I teach women that you have to find a way to do that because you cannot guarantee that at that meeting, somebody else has your back.
So you have to start establishing your own personal power and finding ways to be heard and be seen even when there’s no one to shine light on you.
[00:26:03] Dana Theus: And I actually want to bring in Dr Sy, but I want to say something as a white woman who wants to be helpful to black women and women of color and LGBTQ and anybody else who feels marginalized in any situation, it’s not always clear. Who wants an ally and what kind of ally they want. as my safety pin story demonstrates, you know, sometimes you try to say I’m an ally and that’s not what they want, or they don’t perceive that. That’s how they want it. So what I would say is for both, for anybody who sees an opportunity to be an ally, or who wants an ally look, look, we’re all human beings.
We have human relationship opportunities, you know, it’s totally fine. (And this is true for getting a mentor as well.) You know, like after the meeting go up and say, I didn’t speak up enough. I apologize. Should I have, would you have felt comfortable if I had, or you could go up to somebody who, privately has said that they know when you get talked over and say, I really would have appreciated it if you could have spoken up in that meeting, it would have been very helpful to me. Would you mind doing that more proactively and use that as a bridge into a conversation?
Like I was saying before, it’s not about unilaterally deciding I’m going to be an ally or I’m going to seek allies. It’s about finding relationships where you and the other person are both comfortable supporting each other and even have conversations about what does that look like?
Because you both know if you over, if you tell the boss to, you know, to shut up and agree with you, you’re both gonna get downgraded. So maybe that isn’t the response in that meeting when the boss is talking, but you can brainstorm ways of sort of saying privately to the boss. Did you realize you spoke over this black woman and it didn’t look good for you, but in a private setting, not in a public meeting. So, I mean, there’s various ways to respond to it, but I just encourage everybody, Don’t sit there and feel like it’s all on you privately. Start talking to each other who you, people you think would be allies or mentors.
And I’m after saying all that, I’m going to see yourself and it built on the personal power comment, because I’m all about that.
[00:28:15] Caller: Such a good conversation to be having. I’ve been in medicine for 38 plus years and talk about, hierarchy and, corporateness, come on. It’s like it was, it was all male domination as well. They didn’t even have female locker rooms for female physicians. When I first started, I had to change with the nurses, quote unquote, but it is really about personal power. And, the thing about power is that you have to earn it. You have to hold on to it and then you have to be willing to risk it.
Have it be a little bit vulnerable when you do step up to defend and support someone else? I’ve always said that I did a lot of mentoring in my career and I was not mentored. I just don’t believe that I was, but. I actually asked for help. I saw this wonderful, accomplished physician published and did all this stuff, and she was relocating to my hospital and I knew what we went into each other and all kinds of different, other ways that when I approached her and said, can you help me with this project?
I would love, she was like, I don’t understand what you’re asking of me. She literally said that. And I said, well, I was just looking for someone to mentor me and to, you know, and she just, she had no clue and she literally refused to do. And years later after I’ve done my stuff and published, and that we ran into each other again at another conference, she laid her with talking and she says, oh, I you’ve done so well, you know, why didn’t you speak up?
And we could have worked together. And I was like, excuse me. I did ask you. Okay. She had, she didn’t even remember. She said no. It’s really, a very important. Piece to one, stand into your own power to say when someone is not, being, respectful of your input. I had a friend and who’s, every time she raised her head, they would go, oh my God.
Okay. Now, Sally Ann, because they know that she was going to laser them and she would be right. You have to be on point. You have to have a good idea and who can argue with that. They cannot. And it’s a matter of really standing in that power that, you know, you are right. No, you should be heard and you can respectfully state.
You know, you made a comment like, God, I love the way Sondra said she’s went, but then you just repeated what I just said. I think that’s, you know, I’m glad that you’re on board, that kind of thing. You could make it so that it’s not as, you know, negative or as derogatory, but you need to really call them out because it’s unconscious bias that we’re working against here.
People are not purposefully doing it. They are unaware that, that, that they’re doing that. And you, you know, the, and you can speak to the, cultivating their awareness so that they can then hopefully change. Well, you know, one of the things that I like about what you’re saying there about being in your personal power is particularly when it’s unconscious bias.
[00:31:34] Dana Theus: Yeah. The fact is we never really know why people do what they do. Maybe they’re a bully. Maybe they had a bad day. Maybe, you know, maybe, maybe no one helped them. So they don’t really know what it looks like to help other people. We like, we have no idea. Maybe they’re just nasty. And when, when our response to that as being in our own power, then it doesn’t matter.
The reason that they are, or aren’t helping us, we’re not vulnerable to that. And if they can help us, they’re more likely to want to, because we’re not coming to them saying, save me, save me. We’re coming to them saying I am powerful. and I would like to share what I have to give in a relationship with you and a lot of people really respond well to that.
So there’s, there’s no downside to being in your own power and, and with the possible exception of letting anger get the better of you when you’re communicating it because, anger just always triggers other people to defensiveness. and so when, when our power is expressed as anger, even if it’s righteous, it’s justified, it’s human nature that other people push against it. But, but we really can’t go wrong by standing in our own power.
[00:32:42] Saundra Gilliard: And I think that, both of you raise a good point. since we’re talking about women helping women have been being to be powerless for so long that a lot of women don’t recognize the power that they have. And one of the things that I know you and I, both Dana and work with is helping women identify, and, utilize that power, you know?
So how do you, because , most women will get upset about, we talk about what, what the depression rate is for women, that is brought on by having, difficulties at work. And it’s because they haven’t learned how to use their power without being angry. And I know for a lot of times, even as a black woman, even when I’m not angry, because I raised an issue, I become the angry black.
And so as a, as a black woman, I always caution people that told me that don’t come angry because no matter how I present a position, I’m an angry black woman. Now I may not even shake my head or do a lot of things. If I just tell you the facts, I’m an angry black woman. And particularly if I do it more than once, then I become a label.
So we have to really watch this one size fit all because, because we’re in different situations that it doesn’t really, you know, you have to talk to the person who’s in that situation, you have to do the assessment of the environment, you know, what do you know who are they’re accustomed to? And if they’re accustomed to quiet meek, white women, a black woman that even complains will be the angry black woman.
And even if she says it nicely, you write a nice letter. So I, yeah, so I’ve been called the angry black woman, but my. My sponsor has said to me, you speak up no matter what, you know, and I promoted to do that. And I started promoting my angry black woman title now has come. Okay. here’s a person who’s going to challenge you.
So now I’m the challenger, not the angry person, but here is the deal. If you going to be angry or upset, as Dana alluded to have your facts, I was working with a woman who told me that she never had a chance to speak up on the phone. She was defining and finances, but I asked her, were you adding something, you know, To the numbers that were already given, you know, what were you adding differently?
You know, like, just like we asked men or whoever not to repeat what we say, you know, make sure that when you go to those finance meetings and just telling them what the impact is of those numbers, you don’t bring something so that you can get the respect so that when you talk, it’s not just because you want to hear yourself talk or bring something, particularly at a board, a board level meeting, you know, we want to get you there to get business done quickly, not to,you want to get your voice heard because you have something valuable to say.
So on the things that we talk about when we look at, you know, getting to know and getting to be in our personal power, and I want to bring Rosalyn into the conversation here, she’s raised her hand, and I will just say that, you know, there’s the angry black woman. Stereotype. There’s also just the, the bitch.
You just, if you’re a female, right. You know, you can be, men are competent and aggressive. Women’s off, which women are bitches or angry or angry.
[00:35:55] Dana Theus: And actually that’s a perfect example of where, you know, white women are very, very aware ofthat label. , And so I feel total kinship with the angry black woman, except there’s just, it’s, it’s the angry woman that I, I feel vulnerable to being. Or being seen as we all have the same problem, but it’s not the same problem
[00:36:14] Saundra Gilliard: Because when we’re called the black bitch, that we were we’re way past, but exactly, you’d rather deal with an angry black woman. Did a deal with a black bitch. Yes, exactly.
Dana Theus: So Roslyn join us.
[00:36:26] Caller: good afternoon, ladies. I love this topic and, I’m like a stocker of Saundra and the topic you guys are talking about is so much needed, especially with this young generation.
I come from a generation where. in the eighties I worked for, the government, military civilian, and in the field that I worked in because there were green suiters and civilians, there was still that line of, authority and being seen and unseen. [00:37:00] And I I’ve had a lot of hurt in being in the position that I was in because I’m a caring person and thought that we all work together as a team, but find out when promotions came in or, other things came available, different projects.
They wanted my work, but they didn’t want the person itself.
And how did you come to understand that distinction? I’m curious. I think, because it was such a few of us have covered. In, in the leadership position. And once I was elevated to that leadership position and, I’ve seen, the white Limon when it came time for promotion or, be promoted in positions, but I did the work.
So you kind of like said I’m being the person I am and being in the military environment, you just say, oh, that’s just the way it is. But now that I’m older and wiser and retired, I took a lot of BS that, I shouldn’t have. And, but it is what it is. And I think that it played at the end of my retirement that I did not.
Speak up because there wasn’t a space for it, even though I felt like I had that align with people and we would laugh and joke and go to dinner together. And we knew each other’s kids. There was still a borderline when it came to certain things, especially for promotion. And, and this is because it is the government.
I want to say that, Saundra was talking about the angry black woman. I think sometime our passion and the way I, I would say for myself, I bring out my passion was different than if it was brought out by my white counterpart. but, what I want to say is what you guys are. I have nieces now that are in corporate America that are facing these issues, but they job, you know, you mess with me, I’m gone.
I’m going to the next job and boy that because of their skillset, they’re able to get paid the money, but also I have, or they’ll start their own business heck. But I think that, there is, a space where we do need to bring this younger generation in so that they can stand their ground, be heard in a way that they don’t feel emotionally drained or emotionally scarred.
And still make a difference in this world. I think coming together is so needed, but if you’ve ever been changed or, being in the situation, that trust is hard.
[00:39:58] Saundra Gilliard: It’s interesting. You mentioned that, Rosalind, because we were going to talk about trust, if there are no more people who want to, address this issue, you know, I would be interested to know if that, if there was a woman, who is not a woman of color, had a comment, on what they, what they’ve been hearing.
[00:40:15] Dana Theus: I want to ask, I’m going to Donita. Excuse me. I’m going to offer you the opportunity to speak and kind of speak to your question cause it is about trust.
[00:40:23] Caller: Thank you. Appreciate it. Dani to Prakash, I am a white woman. You said at the very beginning, Saundra, about you gotta walk the walk, you know, for people to trust you.
You’ve got to be. Somebody who’s helping, people of color get opportunities, you know, what are you doing to stand up for them before you can then ask for alliances or, you know, offer help essentially. And so my question was, that’s all kind of, in my opinion, private stuff, right? You’re, you’re giving people opportunities.
You’re recommending them for things not so public. Right. So how will people know to trust you beyond the, the small network that you might have?
[00:41:08] Saundra Gilliard: You know, it’s interesting you say that because, people talk and we know that. And, and so that when you have been in, instrumental and helping, helping a person, move through a corporation, you can believe me that you will be known as a person who has done that, unless, unless, and we’ll talk about this, unless you are in a position where that information should not be known.
And, we talk about this, the stop, the stop framework, because sometimes safety for you. You know, sometimes people want to be held anonymous. They don’t want you, they don’t, they don’t want to know what they’re doing because of either their relationships and job or family or safety or security, they may not want those things, you know, publicize.
And I’ve had people say to me, you know, so-and-so recommended you for a position and I don’t even know who it is. You know, I don’t even know who it was, but that person feels, that was the right thing for them to do. And I do appreciate that. So allyship doesn’t mean that you’re always out publicly and your name won’t go on a golden wall, but you know, and that, and that’s the thing that we’re going to get to.
What do you feel that you could do? And if you have been instrumental and working with the person, and if that person be rejects your reach out, then it’s really them that they, that they haven’t found, but you know what you do. And that’s what I think Dan and I are trying to get to, is that being a person of caring air, regardless of whether or not there have been an emotional trigger, you know, how were you at your core?
If you are a person who understands that women have been marginalized and you have a way that you can accommodate or assist. If that’s who you are at the core, you will find a way to do that. And not just wait for the safety pin or the, you know, the, or the blackout or any of the other major social issues that come up.
[00:43:04] Caller: Yeah. Fair enough.
[00:43:06] Dana Theus: I would add to that Donita that I think that when we actually get into alliances with people and we start letting our vocabulary shift to accommodate what those true alliances look like, I think it’s the right kind of dog whistle to a whole bunch of other people that, we’ve had these conversations before. We’ve done things to help other people and we can do it again. I think it’s a subtle thing that comes across in and just who we are kind of to your point, Saundra, right? If that’s who we are, But it’s a growth experience and we have to change, you know, we’d have our vocabulary or way of thinking about these things, our way of having conversations about these topics shifts in ways that other people can understand and see and trust,
[00:43:53] Saundra Gilliard: You know, I know for me Donita, I’m actually very grateful for your question because the person who, mentored me was hated by most of the white women in that company that we worked for, because it was, it was obvious that she was looking at the racial issues.
And, but I wasn’t given any favors. I was given an opportunity and I had to take the ownership to make sure that I fulfilled my requirements to do that job well. But, it was no, they called her. You heard what kind of conversations that, so in that case, you know, that’s how I developed that.
Sometimes what you do may not be, what is the norm in the environment that you’re in and for her, it didn’t make a difference because, you know, she was the VP, you know, so, but the, the talk, you know, the back, the backbiting and, talking about her, because she made a decision that she saw some, she plucked me out of school because she knew that there had to be, and maybe with affirmative action that she was trying to fulfill.
And she did. But luckily for me, I had to kind of personality that not only did she fulfill that quota, she actually molded me into the person I am. And it was not easy for her. You know, it was not easy for her because she got, you know, she got a title for that.
[00:45:17] Dana Theus: And it goes back to your point about. True allies put skin in the game.
They take risk of some kind. That doesn’t mean that they put their entire safety, all their reputation at risk, but, but it has an impact on who they are, which brings us back to, you know, that’s how they show up and for better and worse, but it’s the choice they’ve made. One of the things that I was hoping before we run out of time here, Saundra, is that you, you share your STOP framework because to me, this was really important. It was an important way to break down,” all right. So I want to be an ally.” I, this person or this group of people, I want to support,how do I get into an Alliance conversation with them? I thought all of these factors were really important for that. [00:46:00]
[00:46:00] Saundra Gilliard: Okay. So I’m going to share my screen and I’m going to just very quickly, bring up a very short slide,You know about, you know, trying to decide whether you don’t, whether or not you are the person and at what level . I want to go back to the beginning to say that we talk about allyship and depending upon where you are in the stop method, you may not be ready for complete allyship for the reasons that, you know, Dana and Dr.
Sy and Donita, you know, just talked about, that there are some things that you have to consider. And so those first consideration is, how I looked at the acronym STOP. Okay. And so STOP itself is a, a self-assessment that you go through and to learn. What stories are you telling her? What stories have you been told about yourself and how you relate to women and particularly people of color.
So you have to ask yourself, how am I relating to women? You know, what a, what am I told stories or learn stories or perspectives about being a woman and this. Overlay [00:47:00] that. And two, what have I been told about, or I think I know about women of color or people who are just different from maybe godless of what color they are, but people who are different from me, which are including anyone who is in the LBGTQ or any of the other labels that we give to people.
And the first is that, you know, I put the S there for safety, but that safety also include what are your security issues? You know, what is that, self-sufficiency, challenges that you might have, when I talked about the person who mentored me. she was in a position where, you know, job wise, she wasn’t white, but she had a position where it didn’t matter.
I don’t know if she would have had that same skin in the game if she was a first-level manager or maybe even the second level manager, but because she was at the top, she had the safety and security issues were not a concern for her. And then we’ll talk about the T we just trust. And I think [00:48:00] the Nita talked about that, you know, how you build trust.
We know historically that there has always been a breakdown of trust between, women of color, particularly black women and white women. And this goes back to the way we looked at, women’s suffrage when, when black women were not considered part of the women’s suffrage, not because they were not women, but because they were black.
[00:48:25] Saundra Gilliard: And so then you had that race over, come over the fact that you’re a woman and that, and that attitude has been, rain. And since that time, For the most part, Dan and I both know that when white women first started going into these corporate environments, we mimicked white men. And so a lot of our behaviors and perceptions were based on white men and where black women came into the organization.
That’s, that’s what they saw and they felt, so we have this trust issue. How do you build trust? Or are you in a space where you are in a trustworthy situation to build an ally? And then we want to look at what are the oppositions that you have in terms of having that allyship. do you have to go through a particular people?
Does this person trusts you? Do they even want. Do they want you to be an ally for them? What are the obstacles that are set, set out for you in terms of trying to decide whether or not you could be an ally? And then the last is the one that Dana and I talk about a lot is the P and that P has to do with the policies, procedures, principles.
Like, what are you trying to accomplish? That’s going to perpetuate this allyship, like what is going to be the common, the commonality between you and the person or people you are trying to ally? One of the things that I have discovered is that an allyship is not for a person alone. What an allyship actually does is that a sponsorship will put you in the [00:50:00] office and allyship we’ll make sure that the office is available for others like you.
[00:50:05] Dana Theus: I think that’s really important.
[00:50:06] Saundra Gilliard: A sponsorship will put you in the office. But allyship, we’ll make sure that this office is available for others like you. So they are talking about trying to address the bigger issues that you have. And when we started, we talked about a number of ways that women can help women.
If you feel that you cannot be an ally, the way that I look at it in terms of having this common issue, you can still, you can still network. You can still be a, a mentor. You can be a sponsor if you’re in a position to open up doors. But if you are in a position to be an ally, then you are, and you have ingested a bigger concern about the injustices that are going on, in corporations and everywhere else in society.
And that’s where, you know, you want to play your game. So I’ll repeat what Dana asked me. An ally is opening the door for an individual. I mean, I’m sorry. A sponsor opened up an individual and the ally is making sure that those doors are open for all people that are like them.
[00:51:05] Dana Theus: And, you know, I don’t know where in the stop framework, you just suggested exactly this fits, but I just can’t say it enough. It’s in relationship. Yes. You know, it’s the desire alone, the intention alone just isn’t enough. It’s in relationship that a true Alliance can take shape that will impact that system you’re in. Because if you’re in a tiny little non-profit in a community, that’s serving black people and it’s mostly black people in the staff, alliances with white members of the staff and white members of the community and other members of the community is going to look completely different than if you’re in Rosalind’s military organization 15 20 years ago.
Right. It’s just that, like each of the cultures that we live in require a different kind of. Yes, the meaningful systemically and personally, and it’s only in being in relationship with each other, that we’ll figure out what that Alliance really looks like. And it’s just not unilateral. It has to be messy and, and involves a long-term.
[00:52:10] Saundra Gilliard: And it what’s so good about, you know, this conversation is that, you know, these are the questions that you have to ask yourself. And I know that we both would like to give you a one-liner and say, go forth and do this, but that is not the way it is. We’re talking about humans and we’re talking about interaction in a society.
That’s so predates us, you know, we talk about stories that have been long, you know, that have been told over and over again, just with different characters. And, what I would like for you to walk away with today is to understand that, you know, you have the ability to change these things. You have the ability to rewrite the narratives and you got to ask yourself, who am I?
And this allyship like you, who am I? Where do I stand and be truthful with you? And once you’re truthful with you with where you are, it will be easier for you than to go out and make those connections.
[00:53:03] Dana Theus: Yeah, and I think that’s a good place to end because we are at the top of the hour, I will say we have a couple of people who said, you know, we should be doing this more. And Saundra and I have talked about that and want to do that. I think Vanessa, you brought up a point too, that I think is worth noting that this conversation is worth having a general, like we’re having, it’s also worth having in your organization, in your community, whatever it is, I’ll just, I’ll offer myself and Saundra right now facilitate some of those conversations because it’s important to us that we figure out how to have these conversations for real.
And these are real Dana. They don’t build unscripted conversation. And I love the fact that Dana and I came to this because we were talking about this openly, that, you know, I was willing to hear, what most people would think, you know, you don’t want to hear. And Dana was hearing willing to hear what I had to say.
We came to that commonality. Well, regardless of what it is, the bigger picture is, is that we know that this is a problem.
Yeah. So I want to thank everybody who was participating, why the not, I want to thank Sondra, specially. Thank you so much. Thank you, Bernice. We’ll do it again. We hope to see you there definitely take care of you, and thank you.
