I was so happy to reconnect with my friend Carolyn Bruna on her MMC show “It’s a Woman’s World” to discuss some of the challenges professional women face in the workplace, including the office housewife, the imposter syndrome and setting boundaries.
“InPower Women” on “It’s a Woman’s World – MMC”
[00:00:00] Musical Intro
[00:00:16] Carolyn: Welcome to It’s A Woman’s World, where we’ll meet achieving women, making a difference in our community. I’m Carolyn Bruna.
[00:00:23] Our guest is Dana Theus, the Executive Coach and president and CEO of InPower Coaching.
[00:00:29] Welcome Dana. It’s great to have you on my show again. I actually had to look it up. You were on my show back in 2012, exactly 10 years ago.
[00:00:38] And you were also a speaker at the power conference that I started for business women in the greater Washington area to network and learn. Luckily we’ve remained friends through the years and somewhat connected. I follow you online and your business has thrived, and I hope you catch my show now and then. And truthfully, I invited you so we could catch up.
[00:00:58] Dana: Well, it’s so nice to be back and it’s so nice that you’ve been bringing women’s voices to the world for this long.
[00:01:03] Carolyn: Oh, thank you, Dana. Thank you. Actually, I’d like to ask you to please introduce yourself to our viewers who might not know you and tell you what you’re doing now and what are some of the exciting, new things that you’re working on.
[00:01:14] Dana: Well, I’m an executive coach and I work with leaders. I specialize with female leaders, who are looking to make a difference and achieve career success by being their authentic selves. I come out of a tech marketing background, so I have a lot of insight into various sizes of organizations and such, but my specialty is really working with women leaders.
[00:01:34] And the new exciting thing that I’m doing is bringing women together, women leaders together in community on my website and, and through my social media. So I’m really jazzed about that.
[00:01:45] Carolyn: Yeah, that sounds exciting because right now, because of COVID and people being so isolated, the community is what everyone wants.
[00:01:52] That’s great. Mm-hmm. You know, you’re such a successful businesswoman, Dana, did you have models when you were starting out or who inspired you?
[00:01:59] Dana: You know, I always struggle with that question because I actually did not have great role models. I had mentors who mentored me about how to do my work. But I didn’t have great role models. I didn’t work… I never in my professional career until the very end before I went out on my own. I never had a female boss or any women in the organization above me. So I really didn’t have female role models. And a lot of the men weren’t particularly role models. So I pretty much learned by doing and was just inspired by people who were their authentic selves in their work. I figured there must be a way for me to do it too.
[00:02:34] Carolyn: Mm-hmm yeah. Experience is really one of the best teachers as they say yep. For our topics today, we’ve selected two, actually the office housewife, which I truthfully had never heard of and the imposter syndrome, which I do know a bit about, but have not delved into it in detail. You said also you’d bring in setting boundaries and you have takeaways, many takeaways that women can learn from right now. So how about if we begin with the office housewife. Please define office housewife for us and tell us its history and usage and business.
[00:03:08] Dana: Well, this is a, it’s a relatively new term to me. I’ve discovered since hearing it, I think 2018 is the first time I read it in an article from the Harvard Business Review, but it was based on some research that was begun in 2010. So relatively speaking, it’s new, but the idea is what it was focused on. This research was focused on. What are promotable tasks or promotable work work, and what is non-promotable tasks and work.
[00:03:32] And is there a gender difference in who takes on those tasks and activities that put you up for promotion, and those who take on work that doesn’t put you up for promotion. And what they found is there are such things as non promotable tasks, work that is necessary to the business, but not mission critical.
[00:03:49] It doesn’t bring in the money or put out the product sort of thing or file the taxes, et cetera. And that women tend to volunteer or are voluntold to do these non promotable tasks two to three times more often than men. Sometimes this looks like just keeping the kitchen clean, the office kitchen or copy room clean, you know, so when guests come in, they’re not embarrassed to be shown those things.
[00:04:12] And sometimes it’s about onboarding new hires or going on employee listening tours. And women tend to do this more in the research more recently, they’ve also found things they call emotional labor, which tends to fall into this non promotable task category. And this can be spending time, mentoring employees, spending time with employees who are troubled, taking on and building employee wellness programs, all of which is really important.
[00:04:35] And, and it’s not to diminish the value of it. But to point out that the way you get promoted into more and more senior positions is by delivering revenue and brand recognition and new clients and products out the door. That’s what you get promoted for. You don’t get promoted for these other things.
[00:04:51] And for women who have that task balance out of balance and struggle with why am I not getting promoted? This may be a reason because you’re taking on these non promotable tasks, which we, the media has put in this category of being the office housewife.
[00:05:05] Carolyn: That’s so interesting. Right? I had never heard about that before in that label office housewife, but I guess I think a lot of women can relate to the idea of not getting credit for their emotional labor and having others expect them to do the cleanup work.That is so true. I think I actually did much in my early career now that you’ve mentioned it.
[00:05:27] Dana: Yeah, I think we all did. And I will say too, this is also part of a larger trend of why women struggle to get into leadership positions if they want them, which is that in addition to taking on this kind of the less valued work in the office they’re often mentored into the kind of
[00:05:43] professions and careers that are less likely to get promoted into senior levels of leadership. For example, women are 45% more likely to go into human resources and CEOs are almost never recruited out of human resources roles. So there’s the task list of what’s promotable and what’s not. And then there’s also
[00:06:03] The work profile, you know, the career profile of the kind of person who’s more likely to get into leadership versus those that aren’t. So not every woman or man for that matter wants to be in a senior leadership position, but for those who do you know, they have to be thinking about. Not only the work they do day-to-day, is it promotable, but also is the career trajectory they’re on gonna get them promoted to the kind of work that they wanna do and lead ultimately where they wanna have the biggest impact.
[00:06:31] Carolyn: Oh yeah. Interesting. And I imagine that promotable work is different in different areas of business where women and men are working. Is that true?
[00:06:41] Dana: Absolutely. Absolutely. I’ll give you just a simple example from my own background. I came out of marketing, which is not typically one of those careers that get you into the, the, to the CEO’s chair anyway.
[00:06:51] But I learned early on that, you know, there’s digital marketing and then there’s brand marketing. And if I wanted to get ahead in digital marketing, I had to produce results that were measurable. If I were gonna get promoted, I had to be able to point and say, look, I got a 45% higher conversion rate than the other guy or than the previous campaign.
[00:07:09] But if I wanted to get into sort of brand and PR promotion opportunities. I had to come up with an idea that made the CEO and the board go, wow. You know, mm-hmm so, so like the, the, the, and that’s a specialty oriented thing, but, but in every industry, in every company and every role, you know, the things that could get you promoted is different. So you really have to understand for yourself and where you are in your career. What, what is promotable. What is less promotable. Let’s put it that way.
[00:07:36] Carolyn: Right? Right. Well, how would one, you figured it out on your own or did you watch the men being promoted and see the things that they were doing? I’m just curious about this.
[00:07:46] Dana: That’s an excellent question for myself. I did start just watching really carefully. Like what got people ahead and what didn’t, but I’ll be completely honest with you. I needed a coach. I didn’t have a coach. I didn’t even have a great mentor towards the, you know, the, when I was a vice president, you know, and kind of getting up there, I didn’t really have a great mentor.
[00:08:04] I went out on my own. I became a, you know, a consultant that has a, yet a different yet. It’s not about getting promoted. It’s about surviving right. And getting business. And then I became a coach and when I became a coach, about 10 years ago, I started looking back on all these dynamics, not only through my own experience, but through my client’s experience.
[00:08:21] And that’s when I started to really see and read the research and, you know, kind of get smart about this, like, what are the dynamics in the workplace that can help you achieve your goals and, and what can’t and read research like this and such. I wish I could say I had it all figured out when I was in the workplace, but I had to come to it much later.
[00:08:40] Carolyn: Yeah. Well, I think that’s probably what all of us have, but I’m curious about, did you actually get a coach? Did you have coaches? Did you hire a coach cuz for other women who are in these positions, should they hire coaches? Is that something that you would recommend
[00:08:54] Dana: Well, being a coach, of course, I’ll say yes.
[00:08:56] Carolyn: Oh, right, exactly. Forgot you are . Yes.
[00:08:58] Dana: But, but I will say so back when, before, you know, like 30 years ago, when I, when I was earlier in my career, the people really didn’t have coaches like CEOs had coaches, nobody else did right today. A lot more people do. And it’s becoming that people are beginning to understand that we all need somebody outside ourselves to be a champion for us.
[00:09:18] Not. The sense of going and getting us a job, although that’s great, those are sponsors, right. But we all need another voice that kind of balances we can think out loud with. And that balances the, on our voice in our head. Sometimes it’s too critical. Sometimes it’s too positive. You know, we all, we all need another
[00:09:35] voice to kind of help us figure out, well, what are we doing well, where are we growing? Where can I put my energy right now to get the biggest bang for the buck? You know, that’s what coaches do. So everybody needs one, I think.
[00:09:46] Carolyn: Yeah, actually, no, I agree because I really feel I started when you did, or even earlier, I’m afraid and we didn’t have coaches back then.
[00:09:54] And I don’t think I had role models either, and I wish I did. And now I really feel it’s very important to have coaches. So let’s go on. We were talking about the office housewife and I was wondering, has a pandemic made things better or worse for women in the workplace worse.
[00:10:13] Dana: No question. The pandemic put greater expectations and requirements on women to, you know, be there for the kids that weren’t going to school to be there for, you know, family members that were struggling with illness, you know, the, the disconnections in the, in business and our world, you know, a lot of that
[00:10:30] pick up work fell on women and including the emotional labor in the workplace of employees who were struggling there are several studies that show that women at all levels, particularly leadership levels picked up a lot of that emotional labor to try to care for employees. Many of whom were, you know, Very stressed, if not traumatized in the early days of the pandemic in particular and the numbers show it, you know, women left the workforce at like twice the rate of men.
[00:10:54] And they are burning out even most recently, maybe six months ago. The last data I saw showed that women are burning out about 10% more often than men. And during the depths of the pandemic, it was much higher than that. So we have a bit of a deficit to come back from when it comes to
[00:11:10] pandemic recovery. And I think awareness of these kinds of issues I’m talking about can help women, you know, decide how do I wanna come back? You know, what is it that I’m gonna do to make sure my comeback is successful for me. And doesn’t lead me to more burnout.
[00:11:23] Carolyn: Right. We have two minutes. So I want to ask about boundaries for this at the end of the first half.
[00:11:29] I think some women struggle with these boundaries and you have some information about that. How women can work through or make boundaries. We make them, and then we break them. I believe you were saying to me. So explain that.
[00:11:43] Dana: Well that’s a huge topic. So I’m gonna try to contain it for the moment to this office housewife concept is that if you, if you realize that you, this may be you right, mm-hmm, the first thing you have to do is figure out, well, what is in my situation, what is promotable versus non promotable work?
[00:11:58] What is it? And get clear on what is promotable? And what you wanna be promoted into cause like I said before, depending on where you are and what you want, what you have to do to get promoted into what you wanna be doing is gonna be different. So find the place where those things overlap, that becomes your priority.
[00:12:14] Sort of like, okay, this is what I’m gonna do. This other non-pro promotable stuff, cleaning the kitchen or going on the employee listening tour. I’d like to do that. Many women do like to do these tasks and there’s nothing wrong with it. We all have to do some. But you can draw a boundary and say I’m willing to do some, but , A, I’m not willing to jeopardize the things that are the highest priority for me and my organization.
[00:12:33] And secondly, those non-pro promotable tasks. I will do my fair share and I will let other people do their fair share. If nobody else picks up that ball, I don’t take responsibility for it. So I draw a boundary and I say within that boundary is what I want to do and have to do not only to get promoted, but to do my job well.
[00:12:51] And I will do that with integrity. And beyond that, I don’t take responsibility for that. I don’t take responsibility outside this line. Boundaries like this are kind of magical. They create choices for other people. They say, okay, you can count on me for this. You can’t count on me for that. And we do it wrong
[00:13:09] most of the time, we usually say, I’m not gonna do that, but that doesn’t give anybody any choice. It doesn’t give them any information. It just tells ’em what you won’t do. But the minute you flip that around and say, here’s what I will do. You can count on me for this. Everything else is kind of up to you guys to figure out.
[00:13:23] Now you’ve created a boundary that creates choices for other people, and that can be very empowering to you and to them. So you can put that in any context, you can use it at home with your family. You can use it in any relationship. You can use it at work but it can be really, really powerful.
[00:13:40] And when we stick to those boundaries, we train people. You can trust me inside this value boundary. I will deliver this outside of that. It’s not a matter of not trusting me. It’s a matter of, I never committed to that. So either somebody else picks it up or you and I negotiate a specific commitment outside that boundary.
[00:13:55] Otherwise. You know, it’s on you. Not on me.
[00:13:59] Carolyn: Yeah. Oh, I love that. I love your takeaways, especially the boundaries. That’s really great. Make these boundaries and stick to them and present them in positive terms. That’s great.
[00:14:19] Welcome back to It’s a Woman’s World. We’re speaking with Dana Theus who told us about the office housewife in our first half. And now in our second half, we’re gonna delve into the topic of imposter syndrome and its boundaries. Dana, would you please define the imposter syndrome and as it’s used in business, tell us about that.
[00:14:39] Dana: This was the first evidence of it I found was in some research in 1978 which I remember by the way I was alive I was just graduating high school. And it was gender based research that found that women more often than men had a belief about themselves that was out of sync with their actual achievements.
[00:14:58] So women were more likely to have doubts. About their abilities that were out of sync with what they’d actually achieved in the world than men were. And it tends to lead to this. So they feel like I’m a fake, you know, the world thinks I’m this great thing, this vice president, this big accomplished person, but I don’t feel that good.
[00:15:18] And it, and it’s kind of fed by and leads to feelings of vulnerability, potential shame, if not shame feeling not enough and like nothing I can do can ever be enough. And these feelings are dangerous. , they’re not sustainable, particularly if you wanna keep taking on more responsibility and, and achieving more and making more money and having a bigger impact on the world.
[00:15:41] And, and, and a lot of women kind of get stuck in this mindset and they believe it’s who they are as opposed to men who also experience the imposter syndrome, but are more likely to feel like it’s related to their circumstance. And this is true of a lot of self-beliefs, but, but men are more likely to say, wow, I, I am in this new situation
[00:16:00] I’ve never been in before. I kind of feel like a fake cuz I’ve never done it before. Let me dive in and figure it out. And then they kind of get over it. Whereas a lot of women just think I am an imposter, no matter what I do and that’s debilitating and, and very, very hard mindset to get out.
[00:16:15] Carolyn: That is amazing.
[00:16:16] And I had not heard of that. Well, I guess I heard of it, but I really didn’t know much about it. It’s really annoying that women have been labeled that too. And we have to learn how to handle these things and, and that… go ahead. I’m sorry.
[00:16:30] Dana: Well, it is, and I think it’s. We all, men and women, internalize a lot of the messages we get from the outside world, particularly when we’re young.
[00:16:37] Oh. And women tend to get more messages saying, play it safe sometimes for very good reasons. There’s recents little girls need to play it safe sometimes, but we tend to get more messages that Are more judgemental than boys who tend to get more messages, like get up, you can do it, keep going.
[00:16:53] And you know, that kind of cascades throughout our entire life. And if we’re not careful, we don’t counter these messages. It can really lead us into a mindset like this where, you know, we’re, we’re constantly doubting ourselves.
[00:17:04] Carolyn: Yeah. Yeah. Does the imposter syndrome make women more susceptible to taking on the non-pro promotable work that we were talking about in the first half?
[00:17:12] Dana: I, I think it’s probably part of the dynamic and, and I say that because a lot of the imposter syndrome is exacerbated by taking on risk and you know, men who experience the imposter syndrome, particularly experience it at high levels. You know, if you’re gonna be the CEO , if you’re gonna be, you know, take on a lot of risk.
[00:17:30] Man or woman there’s the possibility you’re the, the price of failure is higher. So, your self-doubt has to be lower. So imposter syndrome is facilitated by taking on high risk. Well, if women which many of us are kind of are programmed with some of these thoughts, right? From the beginning.
[00:17:48] In part, because you know, the outside world is saying, well, appropriate feminine behavior is not to take compliments to push it away. Right. Well, if you’re not taking compliments, you’re not letting it in. Well, of course you feel like, well, that’s not real. That’s not really me. They don’t know me. They don’t know how bad I am.
[00:18:01] Right. We get into these kinds of habits. Well, then we don’t feel comfortable taking on risks. We don’t ever learn how to take on risk, particularly when we’re younger. And so we are more likely to wanna go into a career field or take on work tasks that are lower risk, and we go back to promotable versus non promotable tasks, promotable tasks
[00:18:20] are promotable because they’re higher risk. They have a bigger impact on the business. I can get promoted if I make my sales quota or I achieve my business development goals. And there’s a higher risk if I don’t. So I do think that there’s a relationship that women who are kind of caught in the imposter syndrome mindset are, are more, are less comfortable taking on risk.
[00:18:41] But when they learn to manage risk and they learn to stay in their stretch zone and, and learn to, to, to, you know, live into their possibilities and their potentiality. Then they, they, they learn how to manage the imposter syndrome becomes part of their success. And this is true for men too, as we get outside of being trapped by the imposter syndrome and learn to let it stimulate us to grow and to change and to, to learn how to manage risk and succeed.
[00:19:07] Anyway, that’s when it becomes a skill and it becomes an ally in, in our quest, you know, to become our best.
[00:19:14] Carolyn: Yeah, I like that a lot. So, my next question is a little follow up on that basically. I guess I want to ask you how can women handle the imposter syndrome? And I do agree with that. Not taking risks when we are younger, right?
[00:19:27] Dana: Yeah. And, and I do think that’s changing a little bit, the younger generations, you know, I think are willing to take on more risks, which I. All in favor of but I, but I think, you know, the way to handle it, regardless of where you in your career or how much or little you are encountering, this is to the extent you feel like your self-perception is out of sync with how the rest of the world sees you, which is a lot of where the imposter feelings come in.
[00:19:48] You know, the first thing to do is do an audit. What does the rest of the world think of you? try to find out, ask mentors, ask people you trust, get a, a, a trustworthy view. Of your reputation and yourself. And then this is the, this is the key part. This was a critical piece for me. When people are willing to give you compliments and say, well, you should take credit for X, Y, and Z.
[00:20:08] You gotta let that in. You can’t push those compliments away. You have to say, okay, they believe it. To tell them they’re wrong is rude. And to ignore it is denying myself important information about who I am and what I am achieving. So I’m not gonna push away compliments anymore. I’m gonna let them in.
[00:20:26] I’m gonna, I’m gonna believe they’re true and feel like, what would it feel like to believe those compliments are true? And when you do that on a regular basis, you will become more confident. It really does help but then you’ll also get some information about judgements people make about you that are either, you know, part of their biases or part of their personality, quirk, or maybe you’re in a toxic environment.
[00:20:47] I had a client who did this, who, who, you know, she was so organized and some of the people in her organization said, oh, she’s an alpha cuz she’s still organized. You know, And a bunch of other people are like, no, that’s actually a good skill. And she just had to say, you know what? I’m not gonna listen to that feedback.
[00:21:02] That people who think that, because I’m organized, I’m an alpha and trying to dominate them, cuz I’m not, you know, you just gotta screen that stuff out the stuff that’s, it’s just not true about you. And then there’s something left. The things that are left are places you aren’t growing. Maybe you’re not so good yet.
[00:21:16] Maybe you’re still figuring out. Maybe you’re not even sure you wanna do. And in that space, that’s left. When you’ve taken credit for what is due, you’ve screened out the stuff that you don’t want is not true. It it’s, it’s not relevant. You’re left with a basket of stuff you need to be working on and it, and maybe you have legitimate self doubt there, but then you gotta start working on, well, how do I get good at this?
[00:21:37] So I’m not doubting myself, you know? And then you build confidence in that zone. That’s your stretch zone. And when you just keep working on your stretch zone, you just keep taking things. You don’t know how to do and learn how to do ’em and that makes room for more things. You don’t know what to do.
[00:21:51] And pretty soon that’s your skillset. You are comfortable in your discomfort zone and you now have a skill that will help you grow in your career. But also as a person and to me, that’s where, you know, that’s the, that’s the butter zone. That’s the place to be all the time and the skill to learn both for career and just for personal fulfillment.
[00:22:10] Carolyn: I like that a lot, the skill to learn. And I do know that I, as well as you, were taught not to learn to accept compliments, I’m only slowly learning through the years. I’m trying now to believe the people who say that they believe something about me is positive. Right, right. Yep. Exactly. And you try, fail, succeed and believe.
[00:22:31] Great takeaways. Mm-hmm . Yet, if it’s easy for women to struggle, why do they, why do we still struggle with the imposter syndrome? But you did mention some things, but just a quick little summary there.
[00:22:47] Dana: I think that’s a $64,000 question. And I don’t know the real answer.
[00:22:51] Other than that, I don’t, I do think a lot of it is internalizing those external voices that wanna tear us down and there are a lot of women out there who are just rewiring that dialogue in their head, you know, like we all have an inner critic, but we also have an inner champion. You know, we have inner voices, especially when we let in those good compliments, we have inner voices that can strengthen us.
[00:23:12] We just have to start listening to them and put them in dialogue with each other. Believe it or not, the voices in your head are just sit ’em down and have ’em talk to each other and you’ll learn a whole lot and get a coach and you’ll really learn a whole lot.
[00:23:22] Carolyn: There you go, promote yourself. Of course you should.
[00:23:27] actually, you’re a wonderful coach and I see amazing things about you online and your work. So I believe it.
[00:23:34] Dana: Thank you.
[00:23:34] Carolyn: Is there something else that I should ask you that I haven’t yet?
[00:23:38] Dana: I don’t know that this is a question you haven’t asked, but I will put it this way. You know, we all are in, we work and succeed and fail in relationships with other people.
[00:23:47] And going back to that kind of core concept of boundaries we own part of that and other people own part of that. And for all of us, whether it’s on the office housewife or imposter syndrome or anything else, when we kind of, when we own our part of our contribution to the success and the failure of, of everything that we’re part of.
[00:24:04] And we take responsibility for our part of it. We really do give other people a gift and empower them to take responsibility for their part. And that’s, you know, our part is what we control and when we really commit to ourselves to do that and draw the boundary and don’t take responsibility beyond that.
[00:24:21] Carolyn: Mm-hmm.
[00:24:22] Dana: It can have a very powerful effect for ourselves, professionally and personally, and, and re kind of naturally reorder relationships that we have with the people around us in a way that’s very healthy for us. So, okay. Take that principle and put it into effect.
[00:24:36] Carolyn: Yeah. Dana tell people how they can get in touch with you.
[00:24:39] Dana: So you can go to InPowerCoaching.com, That’s the easiest way.
[00:24:46] Carolyn: Okay, great. And is there something else you’d like to highlight about your own business and InPower Women?
[00:24:51] Dana: Well, I mean, I do one on one coaching, but I’m also, I’ve launched an InPower Women Mastermind Community for women on the leadership track in upper middle management and beyond.
[00:25:01] And I would invite anybody who’s, you know, knows a woman in leadership or who wants to be in leadership or is a woman in leadership to come check it out at InPowerCoaching.com.
[00:25:09] Carolyn: Okay. Great. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. I love masterminds, they’re relatively new to me as well, but I’ve been in a few and I think they’re fabulous.
[00:25:17] Dana: There’s actually research that shows that men benefit career wise from broad networks, women benefit from broad networks and narrow networks, deep relationships with other professional women, because we don’t have enough role models.
[00:25:30] Carolyn: Ah, yeah. Great. Well, thank you. We’re just about to end now. I hope you’ve enjoyed meeting our guest, Dana Theus, as much as I’ve enjoyed catching up with her.
[00:25:39] What did you learn about the executive housewife and the imposter syndrome that you’d like to share? Let us know. We’re womansworldtv@aol.com. Remember, it’s a woman’s world. See you next time. I’m Carolyn Bruna.
Here’s something fun. I found the original video I made with Carolyn ten years ago, about power, when I’d just started my InPower Women initiative. I still like 100% of what I said!
I feel like we’ve been in “Diversity, Equity and Inclusion 101” class for decades now. Starting more than 30 years ago organizations first funded the “D” (diversity). Then when those programs didn’t diversify workforces enough, they added the “I” (inclusion) and more recently the “E” (equity) to bring racial and gender balance into their leadership ranks. Now we’re talking about the “B” (belonging). Yet the lack of true diversity, equity and inclusion in our workplaces and leadership remains.
An emphasis on welcoming diverse minds and bodies into leadership is still very much needed. Diverse board representation remains low and among executive team numbers it’s even lower (women’s representation 15-28%, ethnic minority representation 13-17%, with executive team numbers lower than board members). Improvement in these numbers recently has been glacial.
Given that gazillions of dollars have been poured into Diversity, Equity and Inclusion (DEI) initiatives to create more diverse workplaces, the return above isn’t all that impressive. What gives?
There are plenty of true DEI primers available so I won’t reiterate all the research that tells us about systemic barriers, unconscious bias and the limited impact of performative allyship, but I will summarize what I observe from both our research and the interpersonal dynamics I pick up through coaching many female and underrepresented leaders. I especially want to highlight a few dynamics I think are underappreciated by the White majority in leadership. Knowing these issues can make us better DEI allies to those around us no matter where on the ladder of privilege and inequity we personally hang out.
You can’t change what you don’t see and can’t understand
As a leader, you should be aware by now that unconscious bias is real. While bias awareness should be a part of every DEI program, I’m still surprised how many people don’t understand that it applies to them, because everyone with a mind experiences it. The more you deny it the more you do it, and to live in a diverse and inclusive society we all have to become more conscious of our subconscious stereotypes and work to correct them.
The fact is that our brains were built to sort and judge things, especially people. Millenia of evolution have shaped our brains into highly effective social sorters and judgers, in ways that don’t always align with our conscious values. To create a fair society and workplace, this bears some examination.
By labeling this normal human characteristic of our brain physiology “unconscious bias” we’ve taken some of the stigma out of its previous verbal cues as conscious prejudice and various “-isms” (i.e., racism, sexism, ageism, ableism etc.) Yet this labeling has also made it easier to excuse those who don’t want to do the hard work of:
becoming mindful of how their subconscious operates
aligning their subconscious responses and reactions to others with their conscious values
While there’s no simple trick to mindfulness, much less using it to root out your unconscious bias, I recommend a process from The Racial Healing Handbook of interrogating your racial socialization (i.e., how you learned about race/gender etc.) and rebuilding it as a way to think about surfacing your own biases and changing them to better align with your values.
When you go through a process of becoming conscious of the ways in which your own unconscious biases put you into the mix of DEI problems in your organization, you start to see how subtle, context dependent and interpersonal inclusivity has to be. Yes, there must be structural change in HR policies and practices to remove barriers to DEI, but these structural barriers were created to reinforce the personal world views of the leaders who put them in place. If you want true change it has to start with the leaders’ worldviews and mindsets. This means you.
Structural changes will have minimal effect unless you change your own mindset and, importantly, interpersonal style. Why? Because whether you accept the responsibility or not, as a leader you are a role model and you model cultural norms. In workplace cultures, norms reliably trump rules, which makes you very powerful indeed.
An infatuation with the extremes opens the door to blame and shame
When you become aware of the subtleties of interpersonal inclusion, and take responsibility for the ways you participate in it, this awareness makes it harder for you to project inequity problems onto others. Tracking and changing your own biases, you quickly realize that nothing is black and white (literally) and that the most impactful work gets lost when the extremes are battling it out noisily all around you.
Sadly, our broader culture is losing its tolerance for the more moderate, middle way in many areas of life and work. And when we elevate the extremes at the expense of the murky middle we allow for blame and shame behavior to emerge.
Guess what squashes efforts to bridge the divides that keep us from finding true diversity, equity and inclusion? Yep. Blame and shame (BS), from both extremes. This kind of BS just encourages everyone in the culture to:
project the problem onto other people
avoid our own responsibility to change
drive us into our corners to lick our wounds without engaging with people with different perspectives than ours
Basically, a BS culture is very opposite of what’s needed to encourage true alliances that diminish stereotypes and systemic DEI barriers.
So lose your tolerance for the extremes and invite others into the middle, where the work is hard and the rewards are great.
Healing our cultural -isms requires healing ourselves first
Once you’re on the path to evolving your unconscious biases into conscious behaviors that align with your values, you begin to see how out of alignment many of your behaviors are with the values you hold most dear.
The most common disconnect here is the value of RESPECT. Once you learn to see how your behavior, including small microaggressions born of your good intent, can be unconsciously disrespectful even when you consciously intend it to be kind.
Here’s an idea I’d like to see included more often in programs purporting to further diversity, equity and inclusion goals: we all believe we’re respectful, yet I observe that when it comes to respecting people who are not like us, we’ve tripped into one of the only weaknesses of The Golden Rule. Treating others as you wish to be treated is great advice when others are like us. When they are not like us, a modified version may be more appropriate: “Treat others as they wish to be treated.”
A mindset that allows you to learn how others experience you, and learn how they want to be treated by you (i.e., how you can genuinely show them RESPECT in a way they will feel respected), requires that you center the others’ experience instead of your own.
Centering others is really hard.
We are designed to be the center of our own universe. When we’re like those around us, centering ourselves in a cultural context naturally centers them as well. But it simultaneously “others” those who are not like us until we expand the center to include them, or shift the gravitational center to their context entirely.
Here’s the hardest part. Centering others requires that we be authentically and emotionally secure in our own identity, cultural awareness and biases. And becoming emotionally and authentically secure as a human being requires healing wounds we often don’t even know we have. When it comes to race and gender in particular, every one of us (yes, all of us) carries hurts, guilts and festering, unaddressed anguish. Step one in moving beyond these wounds is to acknowledge that they exist. Beyond that, it’s just work to address them, let some go and evolve your identity to incorporate what’s left behind.
It turns out that efforts to bridge the divides between racial divides, gender expectations, ageist attitudes, sexual orientation beliefs and all kinds of other barriers to DEI requires people to participate in the bridgebuilding who are addressing their own interpersonal biases and healing their own wounds. This requires multiple safe spaces, for people who share the same healing journey and for those whose wounds challenge one another.
Here’s the key implication to successful DEI efforts, one we too often ignore at our peril: people who are processing their own pain struggle to engage effectively in healing a divide with others who’s simultaneous healing process triggers their own. I’ve experienced this myself in coming to terms with my own White privilege (still a work in progress). In several encounters with Black people, my unprocessed guilt made me extra sensitive to their righteous anger at White people, and in those moments I was not able to be my best self, even though I tried. Later, having developed a better understanding of where I bore responsibility for abusing my privilege and where I didn’t, I was able to be more gracious and understanding in similar interactions.
By contrast, when those well into their own healing come together to support each other instead of trigger each other, they can build bridges together. But crossing it must still be a healing journey for everyone.
Changemaker, heal thyself.
Allyship requires two-way relationships and agreement
Once you’re productively in bridge-building mode across racial-ethnic, gender, generational, neurodiverse and so many other divides, things get interesting. The term popularly used to describe how people, especially White people, should participate in bringing down DEI barriers is “allyship,” advocating that White people (and White Men especially) must ally with marginalized and underrepresented groups.
But most allyship descriptions I’ve come across in Diversity, Equity and Inclusion 101 programs try to tell White people what they should do, as though they are so powerful that by engaging some individuals to simply change their behavior they can undo centuries of systemic oppression.
Sorry, White people, we’re not THAT powerful. Thinking that if we change all by ourselves the whole system will change is centering us and violating that RESPECT principle by excluding from the solution the very people we want to help. True allyship requires building alliances, “negotiated” agreements about how all parties will behave in support of each other. It requires relationship, dialog, give, take and some level of sacrifice and change by all parties. And when it comes to DEI issues, the underrepresented and marginalized people have sacrificed enough. White people need to step up here more than ever. Let’s start by uncentering ourselves. When it’s hard you know you’re doing the work.
You can’t fake it
Finally, all this work is just so hard–and perceived as so tangential to most organization’s missions–that it’s easier to throw bazillions of dollars, a Chief Diversity Officer and some public relations at the problem.
“Checked the diversity box! What’s next on the agenda?”
We have a word for this insincere and ineffective kind of DEI initiative: Performative Allyship. Because we have a word for it, we can now see it. And because we can see it, we can hold others accountable to not choose it.
Don’t be that leader. Move beyond Diversity, Equity and Inclusion 101. Refuse to check the box. Start down the intra-personal journey to diversity, equity and inclusion across our divides. Do the hard work to become a better person and you’ll be removing barriers for others along the way. Win-win.
InPower Women’s Mastermind
We don’t Mastermind your business. We Mastermind YOU!
Women in the workplace are struggling against burnout and career interruption as they recover from extra burdens placed on them from the pandemic. (See comments for details.)
As a woman, this feels like an uphill climb and to the mentors and allies who want to help them it can make you feel helpless.
But unless we find ways to help women who want to stay in the workforce, companies will continue to struggle with Employee Retention and poverty rates for women (including many single mothers) will remain higher than for men.
What can any of us do?
Ask a woman what conditions would allow her to stay in the workforce and contribute her best? Help her negotiate to get what she needs. Tell her what she’s doing right and tell her when it’s enough
Check your own biases to make sure you’re not part of the problem (asking women to fix themselves is not the solution to systemic and interpersonal bias) Believe in her and tell her that you do.
Keeping women healthily engaged in the workforce requires personal and systemic change, for all of us. And when we do it, women bring their commitment, creativity and spirit to help us all succeed. What have you got to lose?
How have you helped a woman succeed? Share your experience in comments below.
Much is written about how few women make it into the top leadership positions. The reasons are complex and multilayered, so there is much to write. But I consistently find several mentoring tips for women both maximally effective and minimally understood when I talk to women pursuing leadership positions: DO HARD.
On its face, this advice is pretty simple: stay in your stretch zone and learn to master feelings of uncertainty, discomfort and periodic failure while you learn and grow. This can be more challenging for some women than men, which is actually a dynamic that is written about often (e.g., imposter syndrome). But what’s less often explored is WHY it’s so important for women to overcome their culturally ingrained reservations about taking on big challenges, and how to do it authentically in our modern business culture.
The truth is that regardless of your gender, race, personality type or upbringing, leadership is hard. The leaders who are leading now, who are selecting their replacements for the future, are keen to spot talent that knows this, who takes on “hard” with enthusiasm, and who succeeds more often than not. A woman may have to overcome unconscious bias to be selected, but if she isn’t viewed as someone capable of “doing hard,” she’ll never get the shot at it at all.
So if you want into leadership, it’s never too early to take on “hard” and learn to succeed at it. This will look different at different points in your career, and the path is not always a straight line up the ladder. Below are the career development mentoring tips for women I never received, and which would have dramatically reshaped my own career and that of many other women I’ve helped along the way.
Women are often accused of being risk averse. Like men, some are, some aren’t and overall women are no more risk averse than men. Women do tend to pay a high price for failure and work harder for success, so it’s understandable that they do not seek opportunities to fail as eagerly as the men who are more likely to be given “a pass” while learning to manage risk.
Learning to manage risk, in your business and in your career, is a leadership skill that is learned in your stretch zone. The mentoring tips for women here are that your goal is to learn how to stay in “the butter zone” of your stretch zone, the place where you’re exploring risk, stretching and learning without exposing yourself (or your business) beyond your risk tolerance.
Mastering your stretch zone to become friends with risk is not the same as taking a stretch assignment once in a while, it’s a way of working that ensures you’re always operating in your stretch zone in one way or another. It means you’re always pushing yourself to take on and mitigate risk, learn from failure and hone your instincts for success. You don’t have to wait until you’re managing a team or company to stretch yourself and learn about risk. You can start day one in your career.
What risks are you taking now?
What responsibility is stretching you to learn and grow?
How can mastering this level of risk and learning set you up for success in your next assignment or the one after that?
Focus on these questions and check in on them weekly and monthly. Pretty soon you’ll be comfortable with the discomfort of your stretch zone.
Broaden Your Career Experience
In addition to learning to manage risk, to become a trusted senior leader in an organization, you have to develop knowledge and competencies outside your functional expertise. This helps you to develop your executive mindset, which focuses on the holistic and strategic success of the entire organization, not just your piece of it.
Practically speaking, women tend to find (and are mentored into) a typically female career path in various overhead functions such as human resources, marketing and customer care. While these areas are certainly important to the healthy functioning of any organization, they are very rarely the talent pools from which CEOs and top executive leaders are chosen.
Rather than being a sign of sexism it’s important to see this dynamic as one that identifies the kind of knowledge and experience needed to run a complex organization successfully. CEOs need to understand the nuts and bolts of revenue generation and revenue and expense balancing. Particularly in commercial companies, experience managing a profit and loss business line is critical.
This understanding opens up a clear opportunity for women to more proactively seek experience in the kinds of roles that do lead to executive and CEO appointments, such as general management (P&L responsibility), business development/sales and technical fields.
Even for women who do not specialize in such “leadership-critical” fields, they can seek broadening assignments that allow them to gain knowledge and experience outside their area of specialization. Such experiences make them more appealing candidates for leadership positions in their own field, as well as open doors for career change.
How many functional areas do you have experience in?
What projects or roles can you take that will broaden your understanding of the business and the industry?
How can you gain experience managing large budgets and/or profit and loss business lines?
It’s never a straight shot to the top. Take your career “sidesteps” with intention and use them to expand your understanding of the business, and yourself. And pass on these mentoring tips to women early in their career, with room to explore before picking their primary path to the top.
Commitment to a Mission without Self Sacrifice – Moving Beyond the Inner Critic
I spent three years interviewing founders and CEOs of small businesses. I asked every person what made them successful through the ups and downs of leading a business from nothing to something (of which there are many). Looking for patterns in education, background, values and demographics, I could find no commonality except one. The single, consistent success characteristic for these top leaders was a total unwillingness to give up in pursuing a purpose outside themselves and their immediate families. This strong mission focus kept them coming back from what others considered defeat, survive bankruptcies and market setbacks, overcome personal failings, doubts and mistakes.
Everyone has an inner voice which helps us become more self-aware and to help us evaluate our performance and improve. This voice is sometimes a champion and sometimes a critic. It will come to no one’s surprise that women’s inner critic voices are usually well developed, if not overly developed. This too often leads women to hold themselves back, give up and burn out.
While there are many strategies to reshape and reframe our inner critics to become useful facilitators of personal growth and development, at some point we have to get out of our heads.
It’s a good idea to take on your #innercritic. Learn when to talk back to it and when to listen to it. But don’t forget to get out of your head and act. Via @DanaTheus ⇐ Click to Tweet
A key driver in leadership success, to help us overcome obstacles both internal and external, is to lean into a mission that matters, without sacrificing ourselves in the process. Committing to a vision of a better future, which is specifically defined for external people and organizations, can help us become willing to fail, be imperfect and get over our personal deficiencies in service to a greater good without becoming martyrs.
Many men have been acculturated, especially through stories of military campaigns and participation in team sports as kids, to identify and motivate themselves with an external mission set, for which they train and prepare themselves to overcome hardships. Girls are less likely to be encouraged into such strong, group and societal-level mission sets. Their acculturation is more likely to be that of helping and serving individuals and more likely to include a belief that sacrificing themselves personally to help others succeed is not only acceptable but preferable.
There is nothing wrong with either of these models for purpose and mission, however to succeed in organizational leadership, a healthy focus on external, group-level missions is vital. It operates as a natural incentive to help us get past our personal doubts, become willing to learn from failure and invest in our own resilience so we have the reserves to keep going when times get tough.
What purpose drives you to take personal and organizational risk?
How does your current work move you closer to achieving your personal mission?
What is so important to you that you will invest in yourself in order to make it successful?
Leadership is hard. When you develop the habit of “doing hard” in your career, you can hone yourself into the person who can and will lead others to success. Be kind to yourself along the way, but do hard to achieve great things.
And if you’re working to help reduce gender inequality in your sphere, please give share these mentoring tips for women that may help them see their career challenges in a new light. And thank you.
The worst feeling in the world is standing up to make a high-stakes presentation and hearing the voice of your inner critic or the imposter nattering in your ear. It can be deflating and it’s almost always anxiety-producing.
If you’re not careful the Imposter Syndrome will undermine your performance and credibility before an audience that needs to know how good you are.
There are lots of deeply introspective ways to reprogram your inner voices to support you, but in the moment you’re under pressure, who has time for all that?
Here’s a quick tip. When you hear your inner voice casting self-doubt, do this:
Don’t fight it or even pay attention to it. Remember why you’re there and who invited you to this table. Let their faith in you be real. “If they think I can do it, I believe I can do it.”
After all, when you’re playing a high-stakes game, a lack of faith in yourself is a lack of faith in everyone who genuinely believes you should be there.
You just have to let their faith carry you through the end of the event. And if it’s successful, allow the success in. Take credit for it. This will quiet down your inner voice of doubt.
Over time, this little trick will help you move beyond “fake it ‘til you make it” confidence strategies and build up an authentic belief in yourself that is always present.
Try it!
What are your tips for managing the inner critic? Share your ideas in comments below.
Large scale change, a new software system, a culture change initiative or a new business investment can create havoc for those unprepared and major opportunity for those who seize it. In this discussion with Brand Transitions expert, Donita Prakash she shares some of the change management secrets she’s learned working with Fortune 500 clients navigating mergers, acquisitions and other large scale changes. Takeaways include:
insight on what’s really going on in the executive suite behind the scenes
strategies to use major change to catapult your career
tips for surviving the stress
Scroll down for 38 min Video, Audio and transcript.
See below for audio file and full transcript.
Listen to Audio File
FULL TRANSCRIPT OF “Change Management Secrets: Leading (and Surviving) Large Scale Change“
(please pardon automation-inspired typos)
[00:00:00] Dana Theus: Hi everybody. This is Dana at the with InPower Coaching and I’m here with Donita Prakash with Brand Transitions. And we’re gonna be talking about the unique dynamics of large scale change today. with a particular emphasis on the kind of things that we anyway, don’t see, talked about enough sort of those undisclosed dynamics of organizational change and what you can do if you’re leading it or just surviving it to, to get underneath the change and be a, and have it work to your advantage. So I want to introduce. Donita I’ve known Donita way too long. As a matter of fact, I was going back through your LinkedIn Donita. I think maybe you were at AOL when we met or maybe you had just left.
[00:00:41] Donita Prakash: Yeah. maybe right about that time.
[00:00:43] Dana Theus: Exactly. And through Acumen and everything, like we’ve, we’ve been friends and colleagues for a very long time and this is a conversation you and I have privately a lot, and I’m glad that we’ll be having it, publicly and also in our women’s mastermind next month as well.
[00:00:57] And Donita, I’m going to let you introduce yourself and brand transitions, but I will say that through the entire time I’ve known you, you have been one of the most creative thinkers. And even when you’re not in a startup, Company, you have a startup mindset and like me, you seem a little addicted to change, which is pretty cool. I like that. But you’ve managed to make it into a successful career. So why don’t you give us a sense of, of who you are now?
[00:01:23] Donita Prakash: Yeah. Thank you, Dana. And I’m just thrilled to be here and love talking to you and, will be excited to share some of this, that, like you said, we’ve had private conversations about before a larger audience.
[00:01:36] So I’m the CEO of brand transitions. We turn mergers and acquisitions actions into bottom line success when people have to migrate brands. And what that means usually is the company names are changing, right. Because one company has bought the other. They retire that other company name, but often it’s product names are also merging and melding and being recast in the marketplace.
[00:02:03] So we do program management and strategic communications around all that change and have been involved in some really large scale efforts and have learned from our clients who are the brand and marketing leaders in these organizations.
[00:02:18] And you know, something else you do though. I don’t know if you do it officially through brand transitions, but you’re very active in the innovation community.
[00:02:26] Oh yeah. That’s my side hustle. I actually work in some local universities. George Washington university and George Mason university, and done a little bit with university of Maryland in their innovation program. So I instruct on lean startup and how you use customer discovery to learn about your customer before you invest a lot of money in a startup.
[00:02:49] Dana Theus: Now who knows actually, that’d be an interesting conversation point for us to talk about, which is sort of the, the, the lean startup concept and change, you know, because like with like agile development and technology, you know, there’s this kind of merger of traditional change concepts with these newer fresher approaches to development. And doing cool stuff. So I hope we get into that.
[00:03:11] So first, so Donita what’s like the biggest change you’ve ever been part of, like what was characteristic of that?
[00:03:18] Donita Prakash: Sure. So one of the first engagements I received on this topic that kind of led me to establishing a whole consulting firm focused on it was Gartner’s acquisition of corporate executive board.
[00:03:34] So Gartner bought corporate executive board for 2.6 billion. I was brought on board by the brand leaders. Of the firm to, to essentially digest that, that acquisition and integrate the various,
[00:03:49] Dana Theus: Did they give you a really big bottle of Tums?
[00:03:51] Donita Prakash: That’s how it felt some days. For sure. and you know, those are two pretty big organizations had been competing in the market. So that, that makes it challenging when your competitor buys you. Right. And you now have to be part of the bigger. Flow. And to some extent they were purchased because of some of their innovation, but some of the things also you know, were felt that it was done better in the, in the mothership and sorting all that out was part of our, our challenge.
[00:04:22] Worked across 18 different business units. It’s it. Wasn’t just marketing it. Wasn’t just slapping a logo on new materials. It was, you know, let’s get in the weeds of the trademarks and which ones are we gonna keep and which ones go and how do you do all the legal stuff and merge them together? How do you change signs on buildings around the world?
[00:04:44] So it was a huge project. It took 18 months to, to complete, and even some of that, you know, certain products were on a longer lead time. So quite a big deal, lots of great interaction with the teams, working with the, both the CEB team, as well as Gartner and getting them all on the. Same page fun and exciting.
[00:05:06] And I, I loved it so much, as I said, I’ve gone on to make my firm all about this, this type of work and brought other people on board. And,
[00:05:15] and so just, just to paint the picture of like, in the situation where there’s an acquisition or a merger, as opposed to a, a more isolated change that only affects, you know, part of the organization.
[00:05:25] Dana Theus: One of the things that is interesting, and I, and I’m curious about your perception of this, which. So there are all these, there are multiple changes going on, right? So operational integration and and you know, human resources, integration and asset integration, financial integration, marketing, and identity integration.
[00:05:42] All those things are kind of happening in parallel. And you you’ve, you’ve kind of been owning the marketing and identity and external communication piece. Is that the right place to put you on?
[00:05:53] Donita Prakash: Right. So I, I typically get involved with the brand and like I said, I work with the brand leaders who are typically marketing.
[00:06:00] Sometimes it’s a CMO directly, but it is it sort of is, and. All about brand is everywhere. And so typically there is a team who’s focusing on the financial integration and there’s certainly many teams focused on the operational integration, but all of those almost always have brand touchpoints.
[00:06:21] And so. In select ways you weigh in like, Hey, you’re going to update the invoice and bring all the invoicing together, make sure it’s got the new brand. And maybe here’s the new message. If there’s a message on that invoice, you know, for example the brand leaders were busy in the meantime, trying to figure out, you know, what’s our new message.
[00:06:40] Now we’re this much bigger company. How do we accurately describe ourselves? And the whole fact of why we bought them was to have bigger market share, to get more mind share within the C-suite. So whole new messaging structure around who the company was had to be developed. And it wasn’t developed out of the gate.
[00:07:01] You know, it was kind of changing the wheels on the bus while it was moving. And as those pieces started to come together, We would continue to roll those out as we were you know, managing the program of, of change that was going on within the firm.
[00:07:14] Dana Theus: Well, and, and this is, so this is getting me ahead of where I thought we’d be at this point in the conversation, but yeah, I want to bring it up, which is now you and I both come out of marketing.
[00:07:24] So we have a communication centric lens on a lot of things. Right. However, the point you’re making, I think is really critical on multiple levels that. In my experience, you know, when there is change the underappreciated aspect of it, that when it’s surfaced becomes actually part of the glue, that brings it together.
[00:07:43] But when it’s not surfaced, it keeps driving us apart is the fact that it is an identity shift. You know, and, and like you’re talking about is like, okay, so we have a new logo. Great. But it has to be everywhere, which means, you know, everybody doing an invoice, everybody’s sending an email, everybody, you know, all these people that are doing things, all the boxes that get shipped, you know, like everything, the company touches that creates the experience.
[00:08:08] The brand experience of working with the company has to have an identity shift. And a lot of the times we think of it as a logo and it really is much, much deeper than that. So I’m, I’m curious about your experience of those deeper layers of the identity?
[00:08:20] Donita Prakash: Well, I was going to say maybe this is that place where kind of the small startup and the bigger company, I mean, CEB and Gartner were almost equals, so it was a little bit different and maybe the CEB people came in with a little more corporate mindset.
[00:08:36] But when, what I have seen is when a bigger company buys a smaller company, And especially in the tech world software companies, you know, it’s all about culture these days, right? As a company starts up and starts to grow, they’re building that emotional loyalty with their employees and their customers about who they are.
[00:08:56] And. To disrupt that by saying, Hey, we, you know, new company has now bought us and we are now new company is very disruptive emotionally, right? Like you have been trained. And it’s the whole reason you’re at this company is because you just love the culture and you love who they are. But the opportunity, the flip side is now you have, they bought you because you are innovative, right.
[00:09:21] And you have that opportunity to bring that in to a larger organization with more scale. Which is exciting in my opinion, but can be hard, certainly.
[00:09:32] Dana Theus: Yeah. And I, I have several clients actually, who are, have gone through this over the last year. You know, being purchased as either the innovative part of the company. Actually, I think they were all purchased to be the innovative part of the company. I could be wrong on that. And there’s a lot of cultural resistance that, you know, you get one message, which is we want your innovation. We want all your new ideas. You guys have such good energy. You know, we, we, you’re doing great things in the market. We want that.
[00:09:57] And then you hit this buzz saw of not , you know, not invented here. That’s not the way we do things, et cetera.
[00:10:03] Donita Prakash: Right. Or stop using your credit card to charge your expenses. And now you have to apply, you know, like, you know, now there’s a process, right. You know, It feels like, oh, this is this doesn’t align with the innovation I signed up for.
[00:10:17] But you hit on the note, which is kind of like real estate location, location, location, change management secrets are just communication, communication, communication. Like, you know, you can screw up almost everything else, but if you get the communication. You’re in a much better place. And that goes for how you’re communicating with the customer, but then you also need to employ, communicate with the employees before you communicate with the customer.
[00:10:44] And you need to keep that in lockstep. And sometimes in these complex mergers and acquisitions, you need to do it at a product level because customers have. Certain loyalties around certain product features and the sales teams are organized such that that aligns. And you just, the, the comms plans are very complex if they’re done right, frankly.
[00:11:07] And that’s part of what we help people figure out.
[00:11:10] Dana Theus: So, so let’s, let’s dive into that for a minute because I think this is, I think what you said is absolutely true, even if it’s not a. Merger and acquisition, you know, you’re just, you’re bringing in a new software system or you’re going to launch a new product or, I mean, there’s a lot of changes that are disruptive, even when it’s not company wide and communication is always key. What, what would you say are the underappreciated aspects of communication that are commonly done wrong? That if we just, if there are just a few things we could do, right, we’d make this all better. I can a couple, but I, but you’re the expert. You’re the one that does this day in and day.
[00:11:43] Donita Prakash: So, well, some of the, I just learned from my clients for the most part, but I have a recent case where it was a, a larger SAS software firm buying a couple of smaller ones. We came up with a framework that I thought worked really well. So one was let the employees know. Before the change happens to them.
[00:12:04] Like, don’t be reactive. Make sure if they’re, you’re going to change their email address or something, you know, you’re going to make them log into a different system, make sure they know in advance. And that it gets echoed. Like one email probably isn’t enough. You need to put it in D various places where they might see it and have their manager reinforce it, et cetera.
[00:12:23] Like. Nothing like, you know, frankly, one on one communication to make people, make sure people know what what’s happening and why it’s important, framing it in how to do their job better is usually the best way to do that. So how is this change going to make your job better, easier, you know, your career. More productive, you know, your career path, bigger, whatever the benefits are.
[00:12:49] You really have to hone in on that and make sure you lead the communications consistently around that. Here’s why we’re doing it. We’re reminding you here. Why are we doing it? And here’s what’s going to happen. And then finally having a consistent voice. So. Sometimes when one company buys another, like all the leadership leaves, but pick one person who is still trusted within the community that you’re communicating with and have them be that voice of change.
[00:13:18] And so if there’s an email campaign of three messages to make sure they know about the change, have it be that person consistently, I think that’s a simple.
[00:13:27] Dana Theus: And I want, I want to pull out something else you said, which I think so putting my coaching hat on and also thinking about organizations I’ve worked with from an OD standpoint, organizational design, through change sort of thing.
[00:13:39] Something that, you know, speaking now to the executives who are usually the ones doing this, is they like to think, well, you know, we’ll just decide and then sure. We’ll tell them it’s coming the week before it comes or we’ll tell people it’s coming and then, and then they’ll just go do it. mm-hmm and they forget that these are real people and that those managers, like you’re saying the manager reinforcing it is critical, but for the manager to actually voice it and say, yeah, this is important.
[00:14:04] They, they have to have processed that. Change themselves. Some. Right. So, so they, they have to have not only gotten an email themselves the night before, but you know, they have to have had a chance to ask questions, a chance to give feedback a chance to say, well, you know, the way you’re talking about doing it would be better if you did it this way.
[00:14:23] Right. or else, they don’t really feel like they can represent the change effectively. So too often, and I’m thinking of one organization in particular, everybody below the executive suite just said it was like this constant lobbying of. Do this, do this every week, you know, we’re gonna do this differently.
[00:14:39] And the next week the executives say, well, how come it’s not done yet? And then three things have come over the wall since. Right. And they never really engaged that middle level. Who were the people that everybody else was looking to to say, what does this mean? And, and. , you know, how should we do it in the middle?
[00:14:54] Level’s like, we don’t know. We just get the same emails you do two days before, right?
[00:14:58] Donita Prakash: Yeah, I think it does really depending on the size of the change, it does really help to have sort of a change committee. And, different parts of the organization represented in one place. So you can vet some of those, like vetting, the communications is half the battle too.
[00:15:17] Like let’s draft it, but then let’s run it by the managers. Right. Did do they, is this the right tone of voice? Is this telling the benefits enough? You know, is it too long, too short? You know, I do think there’s sort of an. A current emphasis on speed, over quality, which comes back to bite people sometimes in that, you know, what you were describing, you know, just get it done, right.
[00:15:41] Like just get it done and let’s throw it out there. But there are definitely are ramifications to that approach.
[00:15:46] Dana Theus: You know, something else is made me think a lot of the times we, we think of communications at the end, we’ve made all the decisions. Now, somebody you marketing go communicate it.
[00:15:56] And in reality, when you have like that vetting process, you vet the communications, things can come back up the stream. Right. Either some, some are substantive like, oh, we didn’t realize it was going to have this effect. Maybe we should make a different decision. And sometimes it’s, it’s less substantive, but more, you know, emotional and, and related to how you communicate it.
[00:16:18] But the point is when you factor that vetting process, Of the communications. You often pick up a whole other dimension of how to actually do the change mm-hmm and, and it becomes a, a resource in the change process, but, but not if you treat it as like the, the tail wagging the dog
[00:16:34] Donita Prakash: Yeah. A hundred percent.
[00:16:36] And. You know, when I think about the various projects that our company’s been involved with quite often they get rescheduled for, for good, valid reasons, right? Like this group’s not ready yet, or, Hey, we’re going to impact sales. And the sales plan of this year, that’s too much of a risk let’s delay, the change part so that we can deliver on the revenue plan that we committed to in order to then change next year, essentially. So it’s quite common. I think that just what you said once you are involving the people that matter, you start to hear certain consequences that were not originally envisioned and you needed to plan for and, and revise the plan.
[00:17:16] Dana Theus: And maybe, maybe that’s a good bridge into the question of innovation and resistance to change, because a lot of the time that process like the, oh, wait, we didn’t see all the ramifications. Let’s take another look. A lot of people. Look at that and say, well, that’s, they’re just resisting the change. Or people are like, dang it. That’s not, that’s not the plan we had, but if you take an innovation mindset, you’re kinda like, wait, okay, it’s a more fluid reality where you just learn more information.
[00:17:41] Let’s adjust our thinking to this new level of information, same process, let’s delay somewhere, you know, for a good reason, same process, but a much different feel when you’re looking at it as we’re off schedule versus this is let’s innovate and adapt and, and adjust.
[00:18:01] And you know, we, we did this, this is, this is what’s happening, you know? Oops. A few things are falling on the floor. Does that mean we have to change what we’re doing or not? Or can we adjust in a different way? So, absolutely. And you’re right. It’s, it’s sort of how you frame it, right? If you just come in and say, no, well, this is not possible.
[00:18:23] You know, you guys. Are trying to do things too fast versus, Hey, here’s the ramifications, here’s the risks, right? Here’s the rewards and here’s the risks. And right now we think on balance, maybe the risks are too high and we might want to reevaluate dates or, or approaches, frankly. And what’s a level of success that we’re trying to go for.
[00:18:45] Dana Theus: But, but in this context, what is your philosophy about resistance to change? You know, Everybody says people hate change. People hate change. I, I’m not sure. I believe that.
[00:18:53] Donita Prakash: Yeah. I mean, honestly, every team I’ve ever worked with and we’ve seen across these clients if, if people are in the group, that’s trying to enact the change, then it’s a whole new goal.
[00:19:07] Right. And people like to complete goals. So I think it’s the. Making sure people are on board with the goal. And that again, all about communication beginning, mostly at the executive level, Hey, we’re coming to your department for this. Like, who’s your person, you know you know, make sure they’re on board with why this is important.
[00:19:26] But getting that team buy in really helps, I think. And then they kind of are the advocate. Deeper into the organization, as they’re working with their individual teams in order to make something happen. So I actually see less resistance to change. I see more people missing the opportunity of change. I think that’s maybe a. One of those under discussed opportunities out there in a change.
[00:19:52] Dana Theus: You think missing the opportunity, cuz it’s not presented to them in a way that they can see the opportunity or they just kind of don’t look for it or both.
[00:19:59] Donita Prakash: I think again, we’re talking about the situation where maybe it’s a smaller company that’s been bought by a bigger company.
[00:20:05] The smaller company point of view might be again because they’ve been emotionally sort of trained to be. Very passionate about their small company culture. It’s harder. They come in sort of with a, you know, oh, this is going to be bad kind of viewpoint, a kind of negative viewpoint, but really any change is a huge opportunity to, you know, shine your light, you know, make recommendations.
[00:20:31] That’s what every company is hungry for is how can we do something better? You know, we just bought this company. Because of their innovation, you know, bring me the innovation. And that means people need to be able to feel comfortable taking the risk to recommend new things or even to call out issues.
[00:20:50] But again, you always want to partner that with, well, what’s your recommendation.
[00:20:54] Dana Theus: Yeah. And I, and I think too, the, one of the biggest dynamics that I see under discussed and underappreciated. That often appears as resistance to change, but I don’t think is, is when, they hear, well, we want your ideas, you know, we, we want your recommendations and then people say what they think and they don’t feel heard now. Sometimes they are heard, they just not agreed with and it’s not all about you getting your way. Right. but, but, but quite often, they’re not really heard. They’re allowed to speak, but that’s not the same as being heard. That’s not being, that’s not the same as saying, okay, so what you’re saying is this, and this can be happening either on interpersonal level or an organizational level.
[00:21:36] So this is the feedback we’re getting. Here’s how we have processed it, how we’re thinking about it, what we’re taking in, what we can’t take in, you know, all of which, let’s the people who are allowed to speak to say, oh, wow, I really was hurt. Just because they didn’t do everything I wanted. doesn’t mean I didn’t have an impact.
[00:21:52] And a lot of the time. That can be part of the vetting process of the communication. It can be part of the initial change design. There’s a lot of different ways you can decide what will change, but engage people and how to communicate it or how to roll it out in a way that allows people to be heard. So that being heard piece is, is at all levels, organizationally and interpersonally just constantly. just shoved aside. Yeah. And yet it can make all the difference in the world.
[00:22:17] Donita Prakash: And the one rule you there is a rule which is, don’t ask people’s opinion if you’re not going to act on it. Right. And so that’s like a big, no, no. And. Something that we are constantly challenging. You know, if, if there is gonna be some solicitation of input, then make sure that you have a plan to act on it.
[00:22:37] Dana Theus: Right. Which isn’t
[00:22:38] the same as doing what people tell you they want you to do. Right. Which is a lot of people hear they go, oh, well, if I have to act on it, that means I have to do everything everybody wants. It’s like, no, you just have to listen and respond to take the good ideas.
[00:22:50] Donita Prakash: And report back, right. And report back, you, you hit on that, which is tell people what’s happening with that input. Even if it’s we put these in a parking lot, cuz we just can’t get to ’em this year.
[00:23:01] Dana Theus: Yep, exactly, exactly. Sort of one other thought on that, and I’m curious as we sort of move to closing. So if people have specific questions, please, please raise your hand talking about these, you know, communications tips.
[00:23:14] Like if you’re leading a change or you’re managing a change management secrets and communications tips. One of the things that I think is a part of the. Under appreciated aspect of the identity shift is it’s one thing to say, well, the company is shifting its identity, but the people have to shift their identity too.
[00:23:30] Sometimes it’s because they have a new title or a new reporting structure. But oftentimes they may have the same title and same reporting structure, but that brand on their email or their business card, if those still exist, you know, You know, like, like there is an identity shift that people need to process.
[00:23:46] They have to come to have understand the meaning of the new brand, the new role, the new market presence, you know, whatever it is. So, so what are your top communications tips? for getting people into their new identity and, and new way of thinking about whatever the change was.
[00:24:05] Donita Prakash: Yeah. Some of the best practices I’ve seen is there is an acknowledgement of the fact that, there’s a new, personal brand is, is what we tend to call it.
[00:24:17] Right. That goes to how do you represent yourself? And. To your exact point. You need to know what to say. And so giving people sort of the, the speaking points is very important, especially in sales, right? Because they’re the ones talking to the customers, but you really want to offer that up to everyone.
[00:24:35] Like, and I think many companies today are having innovative use of technology where they do a brand video. Right. Which gives you those speaking points. They. They do some recordings of employees going from, you know, here’s what we used to say to here’s what we say now. So they actually invest some resources in making sure that is widely communicated across the new, bigger organization of, Hey, here’s how we talk about ourselves now.
[00:25:03] And that’s not to be taken lightly. That’s how you transfer that brand equity and get that bigger. Bang in the marketplace because you’ve invested, you’ve invest millions in your branding, right? You, if you’ve invested in it, you want everybody to use it and all your employees are your sales people at, at the end of the day because they represent you out there in the marketplace, regardless of what their role is.
[00:25:25] So. One, one thing I wanted to jump in, I know it’s the last few minutes, but you had specifically about managers. I think managers have a special role in doing a couple things, one inspiring trust. So we all, you know, have a low level of trust these days for organizations, but often the people to people, stuff is the high level of trust.
[00:25:47] Continue to do what you say you’re going to do is, is really important to inspire trust in your, your employees be humble, which means in my opinion, be open to new opportunities. Like maybe it be invented here. Like maybe you should challenge that. Maybe there’s a new process that might be better. And then finally for everyone be bold, like, as I was saying, make recommendations, be proactive.
[00:26:12] If you think you’re going to lose your job. The what’s the downside of you taking a stand and trying to be an innovator, right? Like you get some practice doing that. But frankly you’ll get noticed and you’ll probably not lose your job, right. Because you’re a thinker. So those three things would be mine advice.
[00:26:28] I, well, the last one would be bold.
[00:26:30] Dana Theus: I think that that’s always good advice but I think during change, you know, it’s really, there’s a lot of incentives to put your head. You know, there’s a lot of incentives not to do the thing or bring attention to yourself. And yet when things are fluid, that’s when the organization needs people to kind of stand up and say, you know, not only innovative, but also just.
[00:26:53] Stand for whatever decisions have to be made, you know, and not run away from conflict and discomfort. And so it’s an opportunity to become recognized as someone who gets that and can think at that higher level and can manage discomfort and uncertainty, all of which are leadership characteristics.
[00:27:10] And if you think about it, In the day to day of business, there are fewer opportunities than there are during change to be seen as someone who can manage an uncertainty. And so in some ways it’s the best environment to stand up, not just to be seen, but to prove to yourself and to gain the skills of.
[00:27:28] you know, managing in chaos and, and not needing to know all the answers to, to be able to produce results and get things done.
[00:27:35] Donita Prakash: Yeah. A hundred percent. And those are the skills we all need in this future world of work, you know everything’s getting pushed down to the individual level and you got to make your plans and, and make recommendations like a manager, even if you’re not, frankly.
[00:27:50] Dana Theus: Yeah.
[00:27:51] And, and if you’re worried about losing your job, come up with. I call it the plan B you know, like your plan B list of things to do like, well, if I get fired, if I quit tomorrow, what would be the first 10 things I’d do? And if you have that in your hip pocket, it kind of frees you a little bit, not to take stupid risks, but you know, to be thinking more freely like, well, I have a plan.
[00:28:10] If, if I lose my job, I, I have a, I have a way forward.
[00:28:13] Donita Prakash: I love that. Yeah.
[00:28:15] So it’s a little, a little less scary. Well just so I think we are officially done with all the points you and I had planned to talk about. And I’m curious as to whether there’s folks on the line. Who are wondering about applying these principles to specific kinds of change, like, you know, a, a new product launch or a reorganization there’s a lot of change around reorganization that I think a lot of these principles apply to.
[00:28:39] Equally. And sometimes we just think, well, we publish a new org chart but it needs to be communicated. You need to think about the ramifications. You need to involve people and get the managers conversant about what this change is going to mean to, to other people. So if anyone has any specific questions or thoughts, now’s the time to offer them or share them or ask questions.
[00:28:59] And so Donita, I’ll just ask you this one last question while we Wait. Oh, it’s Jasmine. And I’m just going to put the question out there for maybe Jasmine has an opinion on this too. which is, are there any gender dynamics that you experience about change that are worth us talking about?
[00:29:16] Jasmine Lamb: Well first, thank you so much for this conversation. It’s really interesting. And I really am grateful, Dana, that you just brought that point up of when we’re maybe talking about smaller change than a whole merger. But just change within the organization that, that.
[00:29:34] We live in and that is happening right now in my department by adding an additional person. And that’s, who’s Haley, who’s also listening here. And I just wonder if you would speak more to that point, because I think that, This, conversation’s helping me think about some of the communication steps that we are going to want to take as a department in even the coming weeks, to start to help, especially our leadership team, understand how the changes in this department is going to impact them because there’s lots of things where they used to come to me for something.
[00:30:07] And now they’re going to need to go to Haley and it’s going to be like, there’s going to be confusion about who should, who should be at the table. And also just you know, new relationships forming and I just would love to hear any other kind of tips you have for that kind of internal change process, where all everybody’s aware this has happened.
[00:30:25] And yet I think most of them have not thought at all about how it’s going to actually impact them, besides the people who are actually getting a new supervisor. But outside of that, I’m, I’m my guess is people haven’t really thought about how this is actually going to be a pretty big change that they’re going to experience.
[00:30:39] Donita Prakash: So one, one thought I have Jasmine is, goes back to one of those principles around communicating. How does bringing a new person on in your department help your clients, your internal clients do their job better. Right. So making it in context of what’s the win for them. And then maybe if you need to communicate within your own department similarly, and maybe it’s a different when you know, how is, is this helping them do their job?
[00:31:09] Dana Theus: Yeah, I think that’s a good one. And I think the other thing is so there was one thing to send out the email and say, Haley’s here. Welcome Haley. You know, this is her job description and here’s her title and, and and, and. You have to do that. And in that context, as Donita says, it’s an opportunity to sort of say why this is great.
[00:31:28] It’s also an opportunity for you to provide a vision of your department. And how it’s evolving, you know, to, to, to reframe and reestablish how they should see, not just her or you and her, or, you know, the individuals, but your whole department and what you’re capable of with, with this new headcount.
[00:31:47] But I do think so it’s a great opportunity to kind of re articulate reticulate everybody’s identity. But then when it comes down to like, well, who should they call? And things like that. There’s probably, you know, 10 different meetings that Haley will go to instead of somebody else. And, and, you know, you’ll be shuffling around the responsibilities and you can list all those 10 things.
[00:32:08] But frankly, one of the best things to do is just to, to find out like, what are those things that they usually. Would go to you for, or somebody else that now they’ll go to her for and just call that out and say, you know how you usually call me with this kind of problem and this kind of problem, and this kind of problem.
[00:32:23] Now I want you to call Haley and they’ll go great. And then they’ll forget, and they’ll call you and you go, remember how I told you that now for these kind of problems you need to call Haley . So you, you just, you know, be patient say, okay, you know, And once they’ve, they’ve been reminded a few times, it’s kind of like learning a new piece of software or they something on your software menu changes and you keep doing the wrong thing three times.
[00:32:44] And after three times you realize, oh right, this is the menu item I have to go to. It’s like retrain it’s muscle memory, you know, and you have to be patient with that. And you can use it particularly with senior management as an opportunity to reiterate how. Oh, well, you know, now Haley can, is now able to do this so that I can do this, or somebody else can do this and use those as excuses to remind them of the bigger shift that’s happened.
[00:33:07] But in reality, it’s just changing the muscle memory, you know, one person at a time, hopefully several times.
[00:33:13] Donita Prakash: Yeah. I mean, sometimes we feel like we’re repeating ourselves, but again a brief second and in their mind about your departmental changes is going to be forgotten. So I would just, you know, it’s just like brand recognition, like seven times.
[00:33:29] You need to tell them seven times. I think it’s the same on any kind of change. You have to keep reiterating it and, and reinforcing.
[00:33:36] Dana Theus: Yeah. And that, I mean, going back to the communications principle in general, those of us who make the change, we’ve been thinking about it for months, maybe years, you know, this is, this is very old hat to us.
[00:33:47] By the time we started communicating it. And we forget that other people haven’t been spending that same amount of time and energy on it, and we just have to be patient while. Come back around and consistent, we have to be consistent. So if you want them to go to Haley for something instead of you, but then they come to you and you’re like, oh, I can just do that.
[00:34:05] You’ve just untrained them again.
[00:34:07] I don’t know if that answered your question, Jasmine.
[00:34:09] Jasmine Lamb: Yes, that was incredibly helpful. I really appreciate it.
[00:34:13] Dana Theus: You’re welcome. Anyone else have a specific question? I am curious, donate if you had any of those any thoughts on the gender dynamic?
[00:34:21] Donita Prakash: Actually, you know, I did think long and hard about that.
[00:34:23] I can’t point to specific examples, but I will say there are role differences. There are definitely departments in corporations that are more testosterone fueled. I would say just to call out like maybe legal finance, and I think it’s because they’re busy managing the risk of an organization. And so they’re.
[00:34:46] Kind of there maybe of any more change resistant, right. Because you don’t want to mess with the revenue stream or the legal risks. And, and their job is to be the watchdogs of that. So it’s not so much that they’re male or female, frankly, but I, I just feel like they kind of come in guns blazing sometimes when there’s change, they didn’t know about.
[00:35:09] And, you know, even if it’s the first meeting where we’re trying to explain the change, but. I think the way to get past that resistance is to Alli align with them and be their advocate, which is what I’ve found has been really useful is like, Hey, I know you’re trying to get to X. I’m gonna help you get there.
[00:35:26] And you’re gonna have to spend less time on trying to. Communicate why that’s important because I’m gonna have your back basically. Mm-hmm .
[00:35:34] Dana Theus: Yeah, I, and I had a similar reaction in the sense that I, there, I don’t see a huge gender dynamic in the sense. There, there are, there are men and women, both who are very excited about change, and there are those who are not excited about change.
[00:35:47] They do tend to express themselves differently often as we often do, and many things. And just any, any. Any stereotype that a woman has to deal with anyway, is it change is an opportunity either, either turn that stereotype away or to reinforce it for, for women in particular. So that’s, that was kind of, my takeaway was like for women, it’s an opportunity to, if people think you’re gonna be resistant to change.
[00:36:11] Don’t be, you know, show up as yeah. Bold and more solution oriented, and it can be an opportunity to reframe your personal brand. That was kind of my takeaway on that point.
[00:36:20] Donita Prakash: One thing anecdotally I’ve seen is I tend to see women leave more in the case of a merger acquisition, like. To, to leave. And I’ve I’m, I don’t know the reason there.
[00:36:34] But it may be that they feel less empowered to make those changes or to, to come in with recommendations. And that’s one thing I’d like to change. Right. You know, that’s my, the whole thing about be bold, like, you know, make recommendations you’re as informed as anyone about your role. You know, own it and trying to make the change, at least before you, you give up and leave.
[00:36:58] Right.
[00:36:59] Dana Theus: That’s an interesting observation. I have probably anecdotally also seen that. And I don’t know if this is exactly why, but I do notice that during change, there’s a lot of competitive dynamics, musical chairs kind of thing. And some women don’t feel like they can win.
[00:37:15] And some people, some women don’t win because if there’s an old boys club aspect to it and so that they, they feel like their better option is just to leave. And I think that’s very personalized, but I do think it’s real. I do think it’s real, all those things.
[00:37:28] Donita Prakash: Yeah. I tried to find some stat, but I couldn’t find any actual
[00:37:32] Dana Theus: Yeah, haven’t seen any either.
[00:37:33] So good thing. We brought it up now. There we’re a stat on the interwebs All right. Well, thank you so much. Don’t need it for your time. I’m looking forward to taking this into private conversation in our mastermind next month. And I will make sure that wherever this video is posted, there’s connect, you know, links to your website and, and to you. And I want to thank you for your change management secrets and years of friendship and more interesting conversations.
[00:37:53] Donita Prakash: Thank you Dana. Really appreciate it and love to keep going on this conversation.
[00:37:58] Dana Theus: Good. Take care. Everybody care. Bye.
When you’re being considered for a promotion, major contract or new opportunity, what makes you stand out? Your sparkling personality, and even your reputation, will only get you so far.
The core truth is that clients, hiring managers and recruiters will scan your package looking for accomplishments. And the ones that make them say, “Whoa!” are the ones that advance you to the next stage of evaluation.
Accomplishments are the bones of your professional story to date, and they expand (or contract) the scope of what people believe you’re capable of in the future.
So how expansively will people see your future based on what you’ve accomplished so far? How have your accomplishments defined your career to date?
This can feel daunting, but the good news is that you only need a handful of really good ones, spaced out over time, to define your personal brand.
So if you haven’t just landed a huge accomplishment, it’s time to focus. How soon can you accomplish something big, that matters and that benefits people who matter?
Share your tips for achieving big things in comments below.
Everyone has moments of low self-confidence, Imposter Syndrome and performance anxiety. Why do some people move through them while others get stuck?
Well, for one thing when the inner critic gets noisy, it feels terrible, and all too easy to shut down or freeze up (or both!). None of which is good for your career and business success.
So here’s a little tip when you’re feeling unsure in your career, lean into your personal mission.
Missions call to us. Because they matter so much to us and others, they bring to the surface the courage we need to press on in the face of possible failure. They remind us it’s more important to try and lose than never to try at all.
Unsure of your personal mission? Time to get working. Your mission will come to define your personal brand and always be handy, waiting to pull you past disappointment.
I learned of the imposter syndrome early in my career at a women’s professional meeting, and through the years I’ve come to understand that the imposter syndrome is not just for women anymore. Way back when, the speaker on the podium described the phenomenon she said many women experience, and I immediately recognized the inner voice I constantly heard telling me, “You don’t belong here, and the minute they discover that you don’t deserve to be here, they’ll shame you and kick you out. Save yourself the embarrassment and shrink down so no one notices you… or just leave now!”
Listening in a large crowd of women nodding their heads, I felt seen and experienced a sense of validation. But I also suddenly felt vulnerable and exposed. Because, while I was relieved I’d discovered that this feeling had a name, it also became something I felt helpless to change. I chalked it up to something I’d have to learn to live with as a woman in professional circles.
Over the years I came to find that almost every woman I met, actively participating in the workforce or not, experienced some form of the imposter syndrome. It didn’t always stop us from succeeding, but it took its toll on us all psychologically, causing unnecessary levels of stress and anxiety, particularly when operating in our stretch zones.
Imposter Syndrome: A Feature (Not a Bug) of the Human Psyche
While I’ve come to see the imposter as a friend and ally, helping us navigate the discomfort of our stretch zones, until very recently I considered it largely a function of the female psyche.
So imagine my surprise when I began to hear men admit to encountering this voice of doubt! Both privately and publicly, I’ve begun to notice men owning up to the imposter syndrome in articles, podcasts and personal conversations, and it’s now clear to me that the imposter syndrome is not just for women.
Overall I think men jumping on the imposter bandwagon is great because it means:
The imposter is a feature of the human psyche and that women are not more “broken” than men
Men seem to experience it differently, and in so doing demonstrate strategies to overcome it
Men are beginning to role model new levels of vulnerability, which can take the shame out feeling less confident for women and for other men
When I hear men talk about their imposter feelings, they almost always quickly follow it up with how they moved on, which I hear women verbalize less often. Many men share their imposter as a success story, “I felt uncomfortable but pushed past it,” while women tend to share it as a core dynamic beneath their lack of confidence.
I think that the “I pushed past it,” attitude men express can feel a bit inauthentic to many women, for reasons I speculate on below, but overall I’m glad they’re speaking up. I do believe that imposter feelings are normal human reactions to operating in new environments with higher risk levels, particularly when you haven’t had to work with a new level of risk before. You feel over your head because you are. So I appreciate men who own up to this fact and show how it doesn’t have to get in the way of learning to manage our inner voices while also learning to manage greater risk and success.
How the Imposter Syndrome Plays Differently with Unconscious Bias and Cultural Stereotype
While I’m encouraged that men and women both experience this inner world of self-talk, I am very aware that they seem to experience imposter self-talk differently.
I think it’s important to note that while we all have an inner voice of doubt, that is not the only voice in our heads. We also have inner champions, allies, saboteurs and more. What I find most interesting about how women and men experience the imposter is that it provides insight into the ways internalized stereotypes can make us stronger or more vulnerable.
Based purely on personal experience with both female and male clients and colleagues I notice that men don’t tend to believe the imposter as “everything that is true about me” in the same way some women do. In my experience, women are more likely to feel helpless, as though the imposter is part of their core self, whereas men have been conditioned to believe it’s a passing state. And men’s self-talk response to noticing the imposter is in alignment with this, in essence, “This feels bad right now, but I can get beyond it.”
I once heard an interview with a former CEO of a major, Fortune 10 company. He bragged about how as soon as he took on the CEO role he started experiencing imposter syndrome all the time. He said that every morning he’d just look in the mirror and say, “You can do this!” until one day he proved to himself that he could, and his imposter quieted down.
Listening to this I found myself feeling that this strategy would not have worked for me at all. It would ring false, and thus would bring to the surface for me more cynicism and doubt. Then again, I realized, I don’t really recall many external voices in my life telling me, “You got this” when it came to taking on big professional challenges, especially early on. I recall most people expressing surprise that I wanted to take on a professional risk, or concern that I would be putting myself or my family at risk financially by doing so. The subtle message was, “It’s safer to play small.”
And this tracks with my experience of what women and men encounter in many workplace cultures. Following cultural stereotypes that reward high-risk plays from men more than women, men are often encouraged to go for the gold while women are more likely to be cautioned to think twice and avoid setting themselves up for failure.
I must be clear that this is not always true for every man and every woman, but for me and many of my clients, the Imposter gives voice to these external forces by internalizing them so they pop up to plant seeds of doubt at the most challenging times.
So how can we keep the Imposter from tearing down our confidence completely?
The good news is that the Imposter Syndrome need not make us feel helpless. It turns out that we all have an inner critic that knows how to get our attention, but we also have other voices we can call on to help us manage it.
I particularly enjoyed the advice from an MIT Sloan lecturer to learn to manage your inner voices as part of the journey to develop your leadership skills. Here is what her advice boils down to:
acknowledge that your inner critic’s voice is not “your truth”
engage your “inner champion” to remind you that you’re human and resilient
turn to your “inner editor” for constructive criticism you can act on
The truth is that when you take on high-risk responsibilities for the first time you ARE an imposter, but only until you prove yourself. Those feelings of anxiety are there to help you pay attention to what you’re learning while you develop in your stretch zone, so that you do actually prove it–to yourself and everyone else! With greater awareness, self-compassion and mindfulness you’ll more quickly learn what you need to know to succeed, and your imposter feelings can fade away as that truth about you fades away too.
These lessons are just as important for men as for women to internalize so I’m really glad to see that the culture in general, and men more specifically, are picking up on the fact that the imposter syndrome is not just for women.
FREE PDF Guide to Women in Leadership
Executive Coach Dana Theus shares her tried and true strategies to help women excel in higher levels of leadership and achieve their executive potential.
I so appreciate this conversation with Saundra Gilliard and the powerful women who participated in my interview with her. We discussed the complexities of setting up true and impactful alliances across racial lines between women. It turns out that the answer to the question, “How can I be a good ally to women of color” is more complicated than it looks on the surface. Several of the women on the call suggested that we hold more of these conversations and I agree!
See below for audio file and full transcript.
Listen to Audio File:
Here is the diagnostic tool, STOP, that Saundra shared with us to help us be good allies to others:
S: Safe (understand your own stories about allyship and safety parameters)
T: Trust (establish trust with your allies)
O: Objective (know what you want to achieve through alliance)
P: Prevention (take on personal and systemic challenges for long term impact)
FULL TRANSCRIPT OF “HOW TO BE AN ALLY TO WOMEN OF COLOR (AND ALL WOMEN)“
(please pardon automation-inspired typos)
Dana Theus: Hi, everybody.
Welcome to this wonderful conversation on women allying with other women across racial and other boundaries. I’m Dana Theus InPower Coaching, and I’m here with my good friend and colleague Saundra Gilliard, and the more we talk, the more we find we have in common. And this may not be the last time you hear from us.
Saundra is a wonderful thought leader on allyship and so many other things, because she’s a coach and a performer and a creative soul, but she comes from a background in like fortune 500 corporate America. And as, as kind of, as I do too, although I’m not nearly as creative as she is. And it’s really interesting when you have this sort of corporate background and you think about what it means to be an ally in the workplace in particular, but in any setting, things get complicated.
And Saundra has really been instrumental for me and helping me understand what it means to be an ally, at a deeper and much more important level. So, I’m going to open with a story in a minute, but, first I want to just say administratively, what we’re going to do is Saundra and I are going to kick off
[00:01:43] Saundra Gilliard: because I’ve taken all of my 25 years of working in corporate and, doing, as you say, storytelling and finding creative ways to get women’s voices, heard. And, it kind of evolved into me having this business for nearly free, which is an advocacy service for women. And, when I started to delve into that, I realized that there were some behaviors that women, you know, we all have you and I both adapted because he was successful women.
And you did what made you successful in an organization? not knowing that we were actually becoming men in high heels and we were actually, we were actually mimicking the behaviors of men, which wasn’t that advantageous to women, you know, behind us. So I began to focus on how can women help women achieve.
[00:02:30] Dana Theus: Interesting vision they’re taking, taking on the leadership traits of a man, because that’s what leadership meant right. Back when, when we started in particular in corporate America, that really, that really was it. well, I want to applaud you for that. And I w I want to, I want to share the story and get your reaction to, which kind of where you and I took off on this whole concept of allyship and why it’s much more complicated than that.
I thought it was, there was the time a few years ago where, this was before George Floyd, and there was an election. Let me just put it that way. There was an election. And after the election, a lot of people woke up feeling not very safe. And it’s probably fair to say there were a lot of people who woke up and did feel safe, but not on my feed, not in my community, not with my friends.
And a lot of us were really like, what do we do? What do we do to help ourselves and each other? And on my Facebook feed, there was this someone posted like, oh, wear a safety pin. Put a little safety pin on your collar. And that will tell people who feel like they need a safe space, that you’re an ally.
And that they can go sit next to you or they could talk to you and you can be an ally. And this appealed to me because I was feeling very helpless. You know, I was probably, suffering from, was it called slack division? I just, you hit like a lot and you think you’re making a difference, right? But it was better than doing nothing.
And I was feeling really helpless. I thought this is great. I want to wear a safety pin. I want to [00:04:00] tell everybody that I want to help them. I want to create safe space for them. And I said something to that effect on my Facebook feed. And one of my friends who’s a woman of color really came on and got very angry with me on Facebook and was like, this is not the kind of help we need.
We don’t need your help. You know, she’s like, we don’t, you’re not my savior, you know? And she got very angry and I was feeling a little vulnerable to begin with. And I really, I took that very personally. I, I reacted very emotionally in a negative way and I struggled to understand where her. where her anger was coming from, that was being expressed as me.
As someone who wanted to be her friend, I am her friend, but you know, someone who wanted to be her ally in this environment where, where people weren’t feeling safe. And what that did for me was begin to open a door in my mind that I have come to understand something you’ve taught me is being an ally is not a one-way street.
You can’t just wake up and decide to be an ally and not have anyone not have alliances. But I’m curious for, when you hear that story, what does that make you think of? What, what, what do you think was really going on in my Facebook feed there?
[00:05:11] Saundra Gilliard: So two perspective, one is the, perspective of being an emotional reaction.
And, you know, when we hear about the horrible things that happened to, African-Americans and because that’s a perspective that I can speak from, although I think it can go across all, you know, people of color when we have, you know, white women or white people in general, all of a sudden get emotionally evolved, you know, and wearing a pin, putting black tape over their mouth that usually happens for a segment of time.
As long as that emotion is rising high, and then it dies out. And what it doesn’t do is leave us any better than we were before that emotional reaction. So I’m, I can almost feel that the person that responded to you was probably thinking, okay, so what’s going to happen after you take that pin off. I am still going to be the same place and better yet.
What did you do for me before you wore that? You know how much top of mind was my cause or my position before you selected to show how emotionally you’re involved, having your emotions about me doesn’t necessarily help me get the things that I’m looking for. And so when we’re talking about allyship, I think that right now there’s a buzzword.
It was a buzzword. And, in the 1970s, when we had affirmative action. So you have people jumping on a bandwagon with affirmative action, but there are so many other ways that, I think as women, we could take the steps to come to that ally ship. And first of all, it would be how many black women do you really network with?
I mean, in your network. So you jump from not having a network to an ally, how many black women or women of color have you mentored? How many of them have you sponsored. And then to go to the allyship, which to me, you and I discussed it. That means that you have created a common ground, a commonality that you not only want to help me help me individually, but you also want to help remove some of those barriers, barriers that are getting in my way.
Like, you know, what are the practices? What are the procedures? What are the policies that you’re going to connect with me to help remove those, you know, out of the way. So it’s a whole line of, steps that we take before we jump into the, our ship. And that’s what I’m assuming that she was feeling out of nowhere.
Superwoman comes to save the day we’re in a pin. Yeah. so I hear that. And I think you’re probably right on a lot of those things that, you know, in retrospect, this was years ago and the conversations that I’ve had with her and other sense, but, you know, unpacking some, a couple of things you’re saying, I think are really important and are meaningful to me.
[00:07:52] Dana Theus: And in helping me try to understand, like what this really means. One is this distinction between the emotional reaction and the emotional commitment to, to do, to take sustained action, you know, and, and, absolutely that was a factor. You know, I, I w I was in a place where I wanted, I very much emotionally wanted to be helpful and I didn’t know how to do it.
So I was like, here, I’m going to put a symbol up. And now I’m fulfilled because I’ve satisfied my emotional problem. And I really haven’t done anything for anybody else. and, and so that makes a lot of sense. and the other piece of it, though, that I think is important is, that issue about, you know, you’re going to come to save the day.
Like I could save the day, like, like that’s even a possibility, right? Because it’s not like that was the first day of my life. I said anything positive about racial justice. And I think sometimes when we hear that, we think, you know, there’s a, there’s a whole trust issue that happens between, women of color and I’ll speak specifically, you know, because I am an African-American women woman.
[00:08:55] Saundra Gilliard: I have been in the corporate environment. I have been in the educational environment. I have been in a lot of places where I have had to compete with white women. And, so there has historically been a trust factor, between, at least myself and, and many of other people that aren’t. talk to and deal with, and that trust factor, you know, stands in the way.
Number one, and then number two, this whole notion of entitlement and privilege so that when you have a person struggling, you know, there’s food scarcity, but you have the white savior, who’s gone to treat you to lunch. You know, that doesn’t, that ha that allows you to eat that meal, but it doesn’t allow you to address the problem that that may cause that food scarcity to be in place.
And so when I’m thinking about white women who want to put on a cake to save me, or to show me that from an emotional standpoint, that we’re sisters. It does. It still leaves me after your emotions have healed and you’ve forgotten about it and he’d gone on, he’s got other things. I am still dealing with the issue of being a black woman in this [00:10:00] society, doubling any of the, the burdens that you, that you as a woman feel.
So those are the issues that you really have to look at when you’re trying to say that you want to be an hour, you know, to I’m a woman of color, understanding that it’s not just your emotions that, you know, she’s looking to get it. I mean, we have our own emotions because they had to for awhile, what else can you bring to the table?
As my daughter would say, what else you got and that you bring it to the table.
[00:10:29] Dana Theus: And I think too, I’ll tell you another thing that, that helped my knee with my perspective. And it builds on that point. You were just talking about, which is. When I put a pin on my profile, I make it about me and it’s not about me.
And one of the ways I came to appreciate that point is roughly the same timeframe, but for different reasons, I began to realize, well, wait a minute, minute. Yes. I have privilege as a white woman. And that, that gives me a special need to participate, but it [00:11:00] also makes it challenging for me to participate in a way that centers me.
Like that’s not what it’s about, which by the way is how I feel when men say they want to help me. Right. So when we look at. We look at it through the lens of how do we use privilege correctly and well, wherever we are on the privilege ladder, you know, we can see the limitations of what we want.
People who have a higher privilege than we do to, to do, to help us and, and centering themselves is not the answer clearly, you know, give up what a good point up with privilege. So my answer to individuals who come to me and say, that, you know, they want to evaluate their privilege. I asked them what pain point are you willing to accept?
[00:11:49] Saundra Gilliard: You know, to show me that you are an ally with me, what was your pain point? You know, your preference is going to be there, you know, by the, by nature of where we live and the nature of the color of his skin and a whole lot of things. So I’m not as concerned about your privilege. I want to know what pain are you with?
To endure to show me that there was a commitment. and I’m always thinking about, when we talk about allyship and we look at privilege, I think about, I do a lot of history, you know, because I tell stories. So I do a lot of history and I always try to get into the minds of, I think about those three students, Chaney Schwerner.
And I forget the last person, but two of them had privilege, you know, but, and they, and they were not tied to any one particular in that movement. So they were the epitome of showing me that they were in fact allies. They had nothing to gain everything to lose. There was no notoriety. Some of them, one of them have even lost the connection with their family, but they had a common ground.
A common denominator was to eradicate racism. And they were willing to do, they were willing to take the pain of [00:13:00] doing that. And when we look at what an ally is, even a turn of the war, it’s like, where are we going to find common ground to protect one another? And so returning this ally with what I call the George Floyd syndrome is that now it’s this catch phrase that I want to be your friend today because the world is so bad.
And I feel like I’m carrying this heavy load. And so I want to find a way that I can feel like I’m, I feel you, but what is the outcome of your feelings in terms of me in this place that we call, you know, Sharon is America together? Like, what is the outcome of that? And you know, that I’d love that analogy of like, are you ready to get on a bus and risk your life?
Right? Like, like what are, what are you willing to do? And I know. I’ll give you a, I’ll give you a, a mental track that I’ve experienced and I’ve talked to other people white and not white, you know, but all with privilege, you know, and, and, you do, when you have privilege of any [00:14:00] kind, you have to stop and say, am I reeling to risk that privilege a for myself or my family for anybody else that would be affected by that.
[00:14:08] Dana Theus: But also does that diminish my ability to be helpful, right? So it’s like, cause that privilege is leverage, right? So if you, if you, how you use it is important. So there’s that all those ways of thinking about it. And then there’s also like, well, maybe I am, but what can I do? That’s really meaningful. What can I do?
That’s really helpful. And the thing I found, so mindblowing, when I kind of got to that at one point is your analogy of the war in a true Alliance. You sit down and talk together about, well, what, how can you use your resources and your privilege? It’s like, what is useful know. If I don’t talk to you, I don’t know if making a donation to this organization or standing up for you in this meeting, or I don’t know what’s most useful, but if we’re in conversation and we say we have a joint purpose, our joint purpose is to help the people in, in our team
you know, see their bias that they’re not seeing and learn to respect you or me or anyone else. We’re going to have a conversation about that. We’re going to agree. Yeah. It’s meaningful. When we speak up and say, wait a minute, you’re talking over her. So let’s do that. Right. So in conversation with common purpose, Then it’s easy to me for me or you or anybody else to make this decision.
[00:15:24] Dana Theus: Yes. I’m willing to take that risk because I understand that it’s important and that it will have an impact. So yes, I am willing to take that. You, then you bring up a good point and I hope the listeners really caught this it’s that, you’ve mentioned sitting down at commonality that I talk about when we want to come up with solutions.
[00:15:41] Saundra Gilliard: Like they don’t come from the community or the people that you’re serving, someone sits up high and decide that here are some of us here’s, what’s going to solve that problem. And, Renee brown, I’m also a sociologist. Renee brown gives us a wonderful way of, Of looking at that it’s grounded theory.
It’s there, you know, so what happens is that instead of using your, your old methodology of trying to solve the problems for people in society, you go talk to those people, you find out what they want and all the data that you collect comes from them. So it’s not that you have a, you have a, a way of you thinking that a social system should work because you know, you have all the studies in the empirical data, you get them, you get rid of all of that.
You come there with an empty mind, a pen and a piece of paper, and you listen to their stories and what you get out of their stories is. Common codes that you would understand what their real problems are and inheriting that together. You find a solution, which I think is just so beautiful about what Renee brown writes about because she uses grounded theory.
You know, she’s a storyteller. Also, she understands the power and letting people explain what their problems are and help and be helpful in that solution. So when we go back to this whole thing of allyship, you know, my position is, is that the buzzword or is it a real word? Because there are so many different ways that you can help women without Wheeldon this term, I’m an ally, you know, I just, and I, and this is what I want our listeners to walk away with.
When we get a little later, we’re talking about how do you do that self-assessment to determine, at what point are you from a personal perspective? Because it might be, you might start out with just networking. There are some women who believe it or not. They want to be allies. They have never been around more than two black women or two women of color and their entire lives, you know?
So it’s like, how do you, how do you assess where you could really be the most effective? And that’s what we’re talking about. How can women be effective for other women?
[00:17:51] Dana Theus: if you want to come in with a question, like raise your hand and I can make you a panelist or you can type it into chat. And, and you know, one of the things I like [00:18:00] to do in this conversation is get into some specifics, like, like for example, you know, women get talked over in meetings.
Well, black women get talked over even more and sometimes by white women. And so I don’t know if that’s the best example that people want to talk about, but, but examples where we could say, well, what would it look like to be an ally in that situation? You know? Like, like what does it look like? Cause this, cause all this stuff.
Really important, but it is abstract until we’re put in.
[00:18:30] Saundra Gilliard: Yeah, I have a story. cause I grew up, I told you before that I grew up in a beehive, you know, what would I call it? Because she was, she would be what one would consider, you know, queen bee, a white woman who actually took my hand from the day I walked into my first corporate job and she, fought for me.
She prepared me. So she was, she was probably a mentor and a sponsor. And an ally volt up into one, and we’re talking about an 85. She took me straight out of $3 grad school. And I, and I sat almost at her feet. She made sure that there was room for me at the table. She made sure that there were a corporate corner office it’s opened up for me.
She prepared me. She paid for any education that I were company. She made sure the company financed any additional education I needed in terms of learning how to do a particular role in the organization. She went to bat for me. She also pulled me aside when she thought that I didn’t handle something correctly and.
Always willing to give me advice on how so she became a mentor, a coach, an and an ally because she fought for, she fought for against discrimination that I was going through, you know, in the organization. And I always had her, she was the one who put me on the ground in terms of, of being a, a corporate woman.
And she said to me that, watch out for women at corporations. And this is the white woman. This is the white woman. And, she went, she was just so, so it’s not that there are not women who can do that. It’s just that you have to take the barometer of where do you stand personally in terms of. So, Saundra, we have a question from Donita but Saundra I’m encouraging you to come on either video or audio, or I see you on video.
[00:20:32] Caller: Well, good afternoon ladies.
How are you? Both doing wonderful.
Saundra Gilliard: Wonderful. Thank you for joining us.
Caller: Oh, absolutely. Yeah. So I just wanted to, comment, but at the same time, you had mentioned Saundra, Dana. about what it looked like, in a situation where, you’re in a meeting and you’re it actually, let me, let me back up a little bit.
So let me introduce myself. I’m in the Philadelphia area and I’ve been in corporate America for wow. Like 25 plus years, in the it space, have been here. I’ve been in that area, you know, for quite awhile. And, and so I’ve. I think I’ve seen it all. I think I have an experienced it as well.
So one thing that I have experienced, is, say like if you’re in a meeting, and you actually somewhat, you put out your idea, about, whatever’s happening or whatever’s going on, or whatever’s being presented and you put on the table, something that can contribute to the conversation and, or, an idea, and no one gets it.
But then when, either a white man or a white woman, will repeat basically what you just said. And it’s like, wow, that’s a great idea. So how would an ally handle that situation?
[00:21:53] Saundra Gilliard: What, and I’m going to do this because I had a wonderful one. the person who, mentored coach and weather ally for me, stopped the meeting and said, isn’t that the same question or the same response that Saundra just gave? What are you adding new to that? Wow, that’s good. That, and as she said, that’s why I knew she was in my corner.
And I can tell you this Saundra after about two times of doing that, when I sat in ball board meetings and made a comment, there was no repetition because she had already set the stage. Is that if she says something, if you’re going to repeat it, forget it. Unless you’re going to add something more profound to it, but how many women.
Have the ovaries to do that in a meeting, right? Yeah. Because they’re back there. They’re vying for position themselves. Exactly. Yeah. So, you know, you have to what they have to walk that fine walk. I mean, I think today, at least in the company that I work with, I actually now feel, comfortable. I mean, it’s very sad that it’s taken so long.
But I do now feel comfortable to say. You know, my position on things. and then every once in a while, I will hear, a white man or a white woman, kind of speak up and, provide the feedback that you had just mentioned. But it’s very far and few is very far and few. and as I listened to, the both of you, it does help me to realize that I may have had mentors in my career.
But I don’t really feel like I’ve had an ally, whether it’s, you know, a, a woman or a man, who outwardly, as you had provided the example outwardly, would, you know, state to others that, you know, Hey look, almost like, listen to this person. don’t put whatever this person said aside. And give credit to someone else.
I now recognize that I have not kind of listening to your explanation. So one of the questions and I’ll let someone else answer. So how do you, do you have to proactively seek that ally or will that ally recognize you and want to pour into, or provide that, that net safety net or that growth or the opportunity to help you grow in whatever area that you’re in?
[00:24:19] Saundra Gilliard: That’s a great question. And I’m going to fold that in before Dana speaks, I’m going to fold that in into a comment I see by Dr. Powell and that about personal power and being able to hold on to personal power while you’re helping someone else along the way. And so to answer your question is that two things have to happen if you are not being mentored or coached or allied.
You should step into that power. And if you see someone that you think is in the position to do that, ask them, but you mindful of the fact that they have to within themselves feel comfortable. That that is something that they can do. And we’ll talk about the stop framework that I have for a person to do that because the person is in a BPC seat or above doesn’t mean that they have the internal capacity to be an ally, or even to be a sponsor for that matter.
So there is something that has to happen. If something happened happen has to happen within them. And even though you ask them, they may not be, but here is a pro tip for everyone step into your own personal power. So if you’re at a meeting and if someone would be peace yourself, what is wrong with you saying John?
You know what? I’m glad you agreed with what I just said. You know, you know, it did you have, we have to find way to claim our own power and particularly black women. I, you know, I teach women that you have to find a way to do that because you cannot guarantee that at that meeting, somebody else has your back.
So you have to start establishing your own personal power and finding ways to be heard and be seen even when there’s no one to shine light on you.
[00:26:03] Dana Theus: And I actually want to bring in Dr Sy, but I want to say something as a white woman who wants to be helpful to black women and women of color and LGBTQ and anybody else who feels marginalized in any situation, it’s not always clear. Who wants an ally and what kind of ally they want. as my safety pin story demonstrates, you know, sometimes you try to say I’m an ally and that’s not what they want, or they don’t perceive that. That’s how they want it. So what I would say is for both, for anybody who sees an opportunity to be an ally, or who wants an ally look, look, we’re all human beings.
We have human relationship opportunities, you know, it’s totally fine. (And this is true for getting a mentor as well.) You know, like after the meeting go up and say, I didn’t speak up enough. I apologize. Should I have, would you have felt comfortable if I had, or you could go up to somebody who, privately has said that they know when you get talked over and say, I really would have appreciated it if you could have spoken up in that meeting, it would have been very helpful to me. Would you mind doing that more proactively and use that as a bridge into a conversation?
Like I was saying before, it’s not about unilaterally deciding I’m going to be an ally or I’m going to seek allies. It’s about finding relationships where you and the other person are both comfortable supporting each other and even have conversations about what does that look like?
Because you both know if you over, if you tell the boss to, you know, to shut up and agree with you, you’re both gonna get downgraded. So maybe that isn’t the response in that meeting when the boss is talking, but you can brainstorm ways of sort of saying privately to the boss. Did you realize you spoke over this black woman and it didn’t look good for you, but in a private setting, not in a public meeting. So, I mean, there’s various ways to respond to it, but I just encourage everybody, Don’t sit there and feel like it’s all on you privately. Start talking to each other who you, people you think would be allies or mentors.
And I’m after saying all that, I’m going to see yourself and it built on the personal power comment, because I’m all about that.
[00:28:15] Caller: Such a good conversation to be having. I’ve been in medicine for 38 plus years and talk about, hierarchy and, corporateness, come on. It’s like it was, it was all male domination as well. They didn’t even have female locker rooms for female physicians. When I first started, I had to change with the nurses, quote unquote, but it is really about personal power. And, the thing about power is that you have to earn it. You have to hold on to it and then you have to be willing to risk it.
Have it be a little bit vulnerable when you do step up to defend and support someone else? I’ve always said that I did a lot of mentoring in my career and I was not mentored. I just don’t believe that I was, but. I actually asked for help. I saw this wonderful, accomplished physician published and did all this stuff, and she was relocating to my hospital and I knew what we went into each other and all kinds of different, other ways that when I approached her and said, can you help me with this project?
I would love, she was like, I don’t understand what you’re asking of me. She literally said that. And I said, well, I was just looking for someone to mentor me and to, you know, and she just, she had no clue and she literally refused to do. And years later after I’ve done my stuff and published, and that we ran into each other again at another conference, she laid her with talking and she says, oh, I you’ve done so well, you know, why didn’t you speak up?
And we could have worked together. And I was like, excuse me. I did ask you. Okay. She had, she didn’t even remember. She said no. It’s really, a very important. Piece to one, stand into your own power to say when someone is not, being, respectful of your input. I had a friend and who’s, every time she raised her head, they would go, oh my God.
Okay. Now, Sally Ann, because they know that she was going to laser them and she would be right. You have to be on point. You have to have a good idea and who can argue with that. They cannot. And it’s a matter of really standing in that power that, you know, you are right. No, you should be heard and you can respectfully state.
You know, you made a comment like, God, I love the way Sondra said she’s went, but then you just repeated what I just said. I think that’s, you know, I’m glad that you’re on board, that kind of thing. You could make it so that it’s not as, you know, negative or as derogatory, but you need to really call them out because it’s unconscious bias that we’re working against here.
People are not purposefully doing it. They are unaware that, that, that they’re doing that. And you, you know, the, and you can speak to the, cultivating their awareness so that they can then hopefully change. Well, you know, one of the things that I like about what you’re saying there about being in your personal power is particularly when it’s unconscious bias.
[00:31:34] Dana Theus: Yeah. The fact is we never really know why people do what they do. Maybe they’re a bully. Maybe they had a bad day. Maybe, you know, maybe, maybe no one helped them. So they don’t really know what it looks like to help other people. We like, we have no idea. Maybe they’re just nasty. And when, when our response to that as being in our own power, then it doesn’t matter.
The reason that they are, or aren’t helping us, we’re not vulnerable to that. And if they can help us, they’re more likely to want to, because we’re not coming to them saying, save me, save me. We’re coming to them saying I am powerful. and I would like to share what I have to give in a relationship with you and a lot of people really respond well to that.
So there’s, there’s no downside to being in your own power and, and with the possible exception of letting anger get the better of you when you’re communicating it because, anger just always triggers other people to defensiveness. and so when, when our power is expressed as anger, even if it’s righteous, it’s justified, it’s human nature that other people push against it. But, but we really can’t go wrong by standing in our own power.
[00:32:42] Saundra Gilliard: And I think that, both of you raise a good point. since we’re talking about women helping women have been being to be powerless for so long that a lot of women don’t recognize the power that they have. And one of the things that I know you and I, both Dana and work with is helping women identify, and, utilize that power, you know?
So how do you, because , most women will get upset about, we talk about what, what the depression rate is for women, that is brought on by having, difficulties at work. And it’s because they haven’t learned how to use their power without being angry. And I know for a lot of times, even as a black woman, even when I’m not angry, because I raised an issue, I become the angry black.
And so as a, as a black woman, I always caution people that told me that don’t come angry because no matter how I present a position, I’m an angry black woman. Now I may not even shake my head or do a lot of things. If I just tell you the facts, I’m an angry black woman. And particularly if I do it more than once, then I become a label.
So we have to really watch this one size fit all because, because we’re in different situations that it doesn’t really, you know, you have to talk to the person who’s in that situation, you have to do the assessment of the environment, you know, what do you know who are they’re accustomed to? And if they’re accustomed to quiet meek, white women, a black woman that even complains will be the angry black woman.
And even if she says it nicely, you write a nice letter. So I, yeah, so I’ve been called the angry black woman, but my. My sponsor has said to me, you speak up no matter what, you know, and I promoted to do that. And I started promoting my angry black woman title now has come. Okay. here’s a person who’s going to challenge you.
So now I’m the challenger, not the angry person, but here is the deal. If you going to be angry or upset, as Dana alluded to have your facts, I was working with a woman who told me that she never had a chance to speak up on the phone. She was defining and finances, but I asked her, were you adding something, you know, To the numbers that were already given, you know, what were you adding differently?
You know, like, just like we asked men or whoever not to repeat what we say, you know, make sure that when you go to those finance meetings and just telling them what the impact is of those numbers, you don’t bring something so that you can get the respect so that when you talk, it’s not just because you want to hear yourself talk or bring something, particularly at a board, a board level meeting, you know, we want to get you there to get business done quickly, not to,you want to get your voice heard because you have something valuable to say.
So on the things that we talk about when we look at, you know, getting to know and getting to be in our personal power, and I want to bring Rosalyn into the conversation here, she’s raised her hand, and I will just say that, you know, there’s the angry black woman. Stereotype. There’s also just the, the bitch.
You just, if you’re a female, right. You know, you can be, men are competent and aggressive. Women’s off, which women are bitches or angry or angry.
[00:35:55] Dana Theus: And actually that’s a perfect example of where, you know, white women are very, very aware ofthat label. , And so I feel total kinship with the angry black woman, except there’s just, it’s, it’s the angry woman that I, I feel vulnerable to being. Or being seen as we all have the same problem, but it’s not the same problem
[00:36:14] Saundra Gilliard: Because when we’re called the black bitch, that we were we’re way past, but exactly, you’d rather deal with an angry black woman. Did a deal with a black bitch. Yes, exactly.
Dana Theus: So Roslyn join us.
[00:36:26] Caller: good afternoon, ladies. I love this topic and, I’m like a stocker of Saundra and the topic you guys are talking about is so much needed, especially with this young generation.
I come from a generation where. in the eighties I worked for, the government, military civilian, and in the field that I worked in because there were green suiters and civilians, there was still that line of, authority and being seen and unseen. [00:37:00] And I I’ve had a lot of hurt in being in the position that I was in because I’m a caring person and thought that we all work together as a team, but find out when promotions came in or, other things came available, different projects.
They wanted my work, but they didn’t want the person itself.
And how did you come to understand that distinction? I’m curious. I think, because it was such a few of us have covered. In, in the leadership position. And once I was elevated to that leadership position and, I’ve seen, the white Limon when it came time for promotion or, be promoted in positions, but I did the work.
So you kind of like said I’m being the person I am and being in the military environment, you just say, oh, that’s just the way it is. But now that I’m older and wiser and retired, I took a lot of BS that, I shouldn’t have. And, but it is what it is. And I think that it played at the end of my retirement that I did not.
Speak up because there wasn’t a space for it, even though I felt like I had that align with people and we would laugh and joke and go to dinner together. And we knew each other’s kids. There was still a borderline when it came to certain things, especially for promotion. And, and this is because it is the government.
I want to say that, Saundra was talking about the angry black woman. I think sometime our passion and the way I, I would say for myself, I bring out my passion was different than if it was brought out by my white counterpart. but, what I want to say is what you guys are. I have nieces now that are in corporate America that are facing these issues, but they job, you know, you mess with me, I’m gone.
I’m going to the next job and boy that because of their skillset, they’re able to get paid the money, but also I have, or they’ll start their own business heck. But I think that, there is, a space where we do need to bring this younger generation in so that they can stand their ground, be heard in a way that they don’t feel emotionally drained or emotionally scarred.
And still make a difference in this world. I think coming together is so needed, but if you’ve ever been changed or, being in the situation, that trust is hard.
[00:39:58] Saundra Gilliard: It’s interesting. You mentioned that, Rosalind, because we were going to talk about trust, if there are no more people who want to, address this issue, you know, I would be interested to know if that, if there was a woman, who is not a woman of color, had a comment, on what they, what they’ve been hearing.
[00:40:15] Dana Theus: I want to ask, I’m going to Donita. Excuse me. I’m going to offer you the opportunity to speak and kind of speak to your question cause it is about trust.
[00:40:23] Caller: Thank you. Appreciate it. Dani to Prakash, I am a white woman. You said at the very beginning, Saundra, about you gotta walk the walk, you know, for people to trust you.
You’ve got to be. Somebody who’s helping, people of color get opportunities, you know, what are you doing to stand up for them before you can then ask for alliances or, you know, offer help essentially. And so my question was, that’s all kind of, in my opinion, private stuff, right? You’re, you’re giving people opportunities.
You’re recommending them for things not so public. Right. So how will people know to trust you beyond the, the small network that you might have?
[00:41:08] Saundra Gilliard: You know, it’s interesting you say that because, people talk and we know that. And, and so that when you have been in, instrumental and helping, helping a person, move through a corporation, you can believe me that you will be known as a person who has done that, unless, unless, and we’ll talk about this, unless you are in a position where that information should not be known.
And, we talk about this, the stop, the stop framework, because sometimes safety for you. You know, sometimes people want to be held anonymous. They don’t want you, they don’t, they don’t want to know what they’re doing because of either their relationships and job or family or safety or security, they may not want those things, you know, publicize.
And I’ve had people say to me, you know, so-and-so recommended you for a position and I don’t even know who it is. You know, I don’t even know who it was, but that person feels, that was the right thing for them to do. And I do appreciate that. So allyship doesn’t mean that you’re always out publicly and your name won’t go on a golden wall, but you know, and that, and that’s the thing that we’re going to get to.
What do you feel that you could do? And if you have been instrumental and working with the person, and if that person be rejects your reach out, then it’s really them that they, that they haven’t found, but you know what you do. And that’s what I think Dan and I are trying to get to, is that being a person of caring air, regardless of whether or not there have been an emotional trigger, you know, how were you at your core?
If you are a person who understands that women have been marginalized and you have a way that you can accommodate or assist. If that’s who you are at the core, you will find a way to do that. And not just wait for the safety pin or the, you know, the, or the blackout or any of the other major social issues that come up.
[00:43:04] Caller: Yeah. Fair enough.
[00:43:06] Dana Theus: I would add to that Donita that I think that when we actually get into alliances with people and we start letting our vocabulary shift to accommodate what those true alliances look like, I think it’s the right kind of dog whistle to a whole bunch of other people that, we’ve had these conversations before. We’ve done things to help other people and we can do it again. I think it’s a subtle thing that comes across in and just who we are kind of to your point, Saundra, right? If that’s who we are, But it’s a growth experience and we have to change, you know, we’d have our vocabulary or way of thinking about these things, our way of having conversations about these topics shifts in ways that other people can understand and see and trust,
[00:43:53] Saundra Gilliard: You know, I know for me Donita, I’m actually very grateful for your question because the person who, mentored me was hated by most of the white women in that company that we worked for, because it was, it was obvious that she was looking at the racial issues.
And, but I wasn’t given any favors. I was given an opportunity and I had to take the ownership to make sure that I fulfilled my requirements to do that job well. But, it was no, they called her. You heard what kind of conversations that, so in that case, you know, that’s how I developed that.
Sometimes what you do may not be, what is the norm in the environment that you’re in and for her, it didn’t make a difference because, you know, she was the VP, you know, so, but the, the talk, you know, the back, the backbiting and, talking about her, because she made a decision that she saw some, she plucked me out of school because she knew that there had to be, and maybe with affirmative action that she was trying to fulfill.
And she did. But luckily for me, I had to kind of personality that not only did she fulfill that quota, she actually molded me into the person I am. And it was not easy for her. You know, it was not easy for her because she got, you know, she got a title for that.
[00:45:17] Dana Theus: And it goes back to your point about. True allies put skin in the game.
They take risk of some kind. That doesn’t mean that they put their entire safety, all their reputation at risk, but, but it has an impact on who they are, which brings us back to, you know, that’s how they show up and for better and worse, but it’s the choice they’ve made. One of the things that I was hoping before we run out of time here, Saundra, is that you, you share your STOP framework because to me, this was really important. It was an important way to break down,” all right. So I want to be an ally.” I, this person or this group of people, I want to support,how do I get into an Alliance conversation with them? I thought all of these factors were really important for that. [00:46:00]
[00:46:00] Saundra Gilliard: Okay. So I’m going to share my screen and I’m going to just very quickly, bring up a very short slide,You know about, you know, trying to decide whether you don’t, whether or not you are the person and at what level . I want to go back to the beginning to say that we talk about allyship and depending upon where you are in the stop method, you may not be ready for complete allyship for the reasons that, you know, Dana and Dr.
Sy and Donita, you know, just talked about, that there are some things that you have to consider. And so those first consideration is, how I looked at the acronym STOP. Okay. And so STOP itself is a, a self-assessment that you go through and to learn. What stories are you telling her? What stories have you been told about yourself and how you relate to women and particularly people of color.
So you have to ask yourself, how am I relating to women? You know, what a, what am I told stories or learn stories or perspectives about being a woman and this. Overlay [00:47:00] that. And two, what have I been told about, or I think I know about women of color or people who are just different from maybe godless of what color they are, but people who are different from me, which are including anyone who is in the LBGTQ or any of the other labels that we give to people.
And the first is that, you know, I put the S there for safety, but that safety also include what are your security issues? You know, what is that, self-sufficiency, challenges that you might have, when I talked about the person who mentored me. she was in a position where, you know, job wise, she wasn’t white, but she had a position where it didn’t matter.
I don’t know if she would have had that same skin in the game if she was a first-level manager or maybe even the second level manager, but because she was at the top, she had the safety and security issues were not a concern for her. And then we’ll talk about the T we just trust. And I think [00:48:00] the Nita talked about that, you know, how you build trust.
We know historically that there has always been a breakdown of trust between, women of color, particularly black women and white women. And this goes back to the way we looked at, women’s suffrage when, when black women were not considered part of the women’s suffrage, not because they were not women, but because they were black.
[00:48:25] Saundra Gilliard: And so then you had that race over, come over the fact that you’re a woman and that, and that attitude has been, rain. And since that time, For the most part, Dan and I both know that when white women first started going into these corporate environments, we mimicked white men. And so a lot of our behaviors and perceptions were based on white men and where black women came into the organization.
That’s, that’s what they saw and they felt, so we have this trust issue. How do you build trust? Or are you in a space where you are in a trustworthy situation to build an ally? And then we want to look at what are the oppositions that you have in terms of having that allyship. do you have to go through a particular people?
Does this person trusts you? Do they even want. Do they want you to be an ally for them? What are the obstacles that are set, set out for you in terms of trying to decide whether or not you could be an ally? And then the last is the one that Dana and I talk about a lot is the P and that P has to do with the policies, procedures, principles.
Like, what are you trying to accomplish? That’s going to perpetuate this allyship, like what is going to be the common, the commonality between you and the person or people you are trying to ally? One of the things that I have discovered is that an allyship is not for a person alone. What an allyship actually does is that a sponsorship will put you in the [00:50:00] office and allyship we’ll make sure that the office is available for others like you.
[00:50:05] Dana Theus: I think that’s really important.
[00:50:06] Saundra Gilliard: A sponsorship will put you in the office. But allyship, we’ll make sure that this office is available for others like you. So they are talking about trying to address the bigger issues that you have. And when we started, we talked about a number of ways that women can help women.
If you feel that you cannot be an ally, the way that I look at it in terms of having this common issue, you can still, you can still network. You can still be a, a mentor. You can be a sponsor if you’re in a position to open up doors. But if you are in a position to be an ally, then you are, and you have ingested a bigger concern about the injustices that are going on, in corporations and everywhere else in society.
And that’s where, you know, you want to play your game. So I’ll repeat what Dana asked me. An ally is opening the door for an individual. I mean, I’m sorry. A sponsor opened up an individual and the ally is making sure that those doors are open for all people that are like them.
[00:51:05] Dana Theus: And, you know, I don’t know where in the stop framework, you just suggested exactly this fits, but I just can’t say it enough. It’s in relationship. Yes. You know, it’s the desire alone, the intention alone just isn’t enough. It’s in relationship that a true Alliance can take shape that will impact that system you’re in. Because if you’re in a tiny little non-profit in a community, that’s serving black people and it’s mostly black people in the staff, alliances with white members of the staff and white members of the community and other members of the community is going to look completely different than if you’re in Rosalind’s military organization 15 20 years ago.
Right. It’s just that, like each of the cultures that we live in require a different kind of. Yes, the meaningful systemically and personally, and it’s only in being in relationship with each other, that we’ll figure out what that Alliance really looks like. And it’s just not unilateral. It has to be messy and, and involves a long-term.
[00:52:10] Saundra Gilliard: And it what’s so good about, you know, this conversation is that, you know, these are the questions that you have to ask yourself. And I know that we both would like to give you a one-liner and say, go forth and do this, but that is not the way it is. We’re talking about humans and we’re talking about interaction in a society.
That’s so predates us, you know, we talk about stories that have been long, you know, that have been told over and over again, just with different characters. And, what I would like for you to walk away with today is to understand that, you know, you have the ability to change these things. You have the ability to rewrite the narratives and you got to ask yourself, who am I?
And this allyship like you, who am I? Where do I stand and be truthful with you? And once you’re truthful with you with where you are, it will be easier for you than to go out and make those connections.
[00:53:03] Dana Theus: Yeah, and I think that’s a good place to end because we are at the top of the hour, I will say we have a couple of people who said, you know, we should be doing this more. And Saundra and I have talked about that and want to do that. I think Vanessa, you brought up a point too, that I think is worth noting that this conversation is worth having a general, like we’re having, it’s also worth having in your organization, in your community, whatever it is, I’ll just, I’ll offer myself and Saundra right now facilitate some of those conversations because it’s important to us that we figure out how to have these conversations for real.
And these are real Dana. They don’t build unscripted conversation. And I love the fact that Dana and I came to this because we were talking about this openly, that, you know, I was willing to hear, what most people would think, you know, you don’t want to hear. And Dana was hearing willing to hear what I had to say.
We came to that commonality. Well, regardless of what it is, the bigger picture is, is that we know that this is a problem.
Yeah. So I want to thank everybody who was participating, why the not, I want to thank Sondra, specially. Thank you so much. Thank you, Bernice. We’ll do it again. We hope to see you there definitely take care of you, and thank you.
